FOOT AND MOUTH DISEASE

Resolved,
	That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, That she will be graciously pleased to give directions that there be laid before this House a Return of the Report 'Foot and Mouth Disease 2007: A review and Lessons Learned', conducted by Dr Iain Anderson.— [Mr. Khan.]

Oral Answers to Questions

JUSTICE

The Secretary of State was asked—

Detention Facilities

Tom Brake: What recent estimate he has made of the cost of using police and court cells for holding prisoners in 2007-08.

Jack Straw: The most recent estimate of the cost of holding prisoners in police cells in the financial year 2007-08 is approximately £68 million. During the 2007 calendar year, an average of 181 prisoners a night were held in police cells. Court cells were used to accommodate prisoners overnight between January and June 2007, and again in February this year. Invoices to the value of £1.73 million have to date been paid.

Tom Brake: I thank the Secretary of State for confirming that the cost is indeed very expensive, at £460 a night, which is the price of a family holiday to the Canary islands. Does the Secretary of State not agree that, rather than pressing magistrates to consider non-custodial sentences, which they do already, a more effective way of reducing costs might be look into the care that prisoners with mental health problems receive when they are in prison, which the last report by the chief inspector of prisons described as being
	"inappropriate for the level of need"?
	It would enable us to ensure that such care addressed the full range of prisoners' needs, reducing the risk of their reoffending upon release.

Jack Straw: If the Liberal Democrats are departing from their support for community sentences, perhaps we should all know.

David Howarth: indicated dissent.

Jack Straw: Apparently that is not the case.
	Let me deal with the serious point that the hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake) raised about the treatment of mentally ill offenders. The chief inspector's report acknowledges the considerable progress we have made in the treatment of mentally ill offenders. We are transferring many more from prisons to more appropriate facilities in the national health service, and since 2003 the NHS has been responsible for health care inside prisons. However, I accept, as I think the whole House does, that we must do more, and we are doing more. In addition, my noble Friend Lord Bradley is currently conducting a major review to see what further imaginative steps we can take to achieve the end that we all want, which is that prison should deal with serious and persistent offenders who do not have serious mental health problems; those who do are better dealt with elsewhere.

Nigel Evans: I hope that the Secretary of State will be able to look at the costs again. At more than £460, it is almost cheaper to put prisoners in a five-star hotel anywhere in the United Kingdom. That clearly cannot be right. Part of the problem is that it costs, I understand, under £1 to feed a child in school and about £3 to £4 to feed a patient; yet to feed a prisoner in one of those cells costs about £12. Will the Secretary of State look again at the costs associated with keeping prisoners in police cells?

Jack Straw: I agree with the hon. Gentleman: the costs are too high. Having to use police cells is very much not just a second best, but a third best. I simply say that we use them a great deal less than the Administration that he supported. Of course, he is correct to talk about hotel accommodation, but one can freely leave hotel accommodation.

Nigel Evans: You can leave most cells!

Jack Straw: For the record, fewer people escaped from prison last year than escaped in a week under the previous Administration in 1992.

David Burrowes: Is it acceptable that yet another weekend has gone by when prisoners from courts on Friday were locked out of their full local prisons to be transported across the country to police and court cells, and then back to court on Monday? Rather than spending the equivalent of a night not just in a four-star hotel, but at the Ritz, on housing prisoners, surely it would be a better use of taxpayers' money to spend more than £35 million on providing more than 400 new prison places.

Jack Straw: We have provided additional prison places at twice the rate of the previous Administration—2,000 a year on average, compared with 1,000. None of us believes that the use of police or court cells is acceptable. We want to get prisoners out of them as quickly as possible. However, while the hon. Gentleman's memory might be short, mine is a little longer. On average, we used 181 police cells a night last year, but the rate was running at 1,100 a night in 1991-92; indeed, back in November 1980, the use of police cells peaked at an astonishing 3,540. I will take lectures from a lot of people, but not from those on the Opposition Front Bench.

Angela Watkinson: What consideration his Department has given to acquiring a prison ship.

David Hanson: In December last year, we accepted recommendations made by Lord Carter of Coles on prisons, which included the acquisition of a prison ship. We have already made it clear that we intend to commence a new competition for such a vessel.

Angela Watkinson: I thank the Minister for his reply. In October 2006, the Home Office said it was looking for a new prison ship, and in December last year the Secretary of State said that the Ministry of Justice was actively looking to secure a new prison ship. What confidence can we have that this latest effort will not sink without trace, as the last two did?

David Hanson: The hon. Lady should recognise that we have had a competition for a prison ship; I commenced and closed that competition in January this year, because no suitable ships were found. We have commenced a new competition and we will assess the initial market test bids in April this year. If it is economic for the taxpayer—that, I am sure the hon. Lady will agree, should be our criterion—we will start the purchase of such a ship. Our key test, which has not been met to date, is that providing those additional places should be economic for the taxpayer.

David Davies: Could that failure to purchase a prison ship have led to this situation in my constituency? A serial robber with more than 100 convictions was able to walk free from an open prison just three years into an 11-year sentence. Will a Minister please agree to meet me to discuss the issue for 15 minutes? It has caused huge concern in my constituency.

David Hanson: I will always happily meet any Member of Parliament about any issue. If the hon. Gentleman had raised the matter with me before he took up the time of the House today, I would have agreed to meet him then. When we do meet, I hope that he will have done his research—looked at the number of absconds and escapes in 1996-97 and compared it with that in 2006-07. He will find that the performance of this Labour Government has been immensely better than that of the Conservative Government. There were 33 category C escapes in the last year of that Conservative Government; there have been only two, to date, in the latest year of this Labour Government. The hon. Gentleman must do his research before bringing his recommendations to me.

Bail Accommodation

Stewart Jackson: What his Department's policy is on housing offenders in bail accommodation; and if he will make a statement.

David Hanson: The Government are providing offenders who are eligible for release on home detention curfew but have nowhere to live, and defendants whom the courts decide can safely be bailed, with accommodation and support in the community.

Stewart Jackson: Unfortunately, ClearSprings Management Ltd has a number of properties in my constituency, which is testament to the disaster of penal policy under the Government. What message does the Minister want to convey to my constituents, given that they see people who should be in prison moving into their neighbourhoods? That has happened without any proper consultation or information for local residents. Is it not time that the Minister reassured the public and that the scheme was scrapped?

David Hanson: I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman's comments. Currently, there are four ClearSprings properties in Peterborough. He knows that there has been consultation with the police, the local probation board and Conservative-controlled Peterborough city council about those properties, but none of them has raised any objections. None of the properties' neighbours has raised any objections either, and the scheme is working well. The hon. Gentleman has raised objections now during parliamentary questions, but he should discuss the issue with his colleagues at Peterborough's Conservative city council—they could have stopped the scheme had they raised objections when it was proposed.

Julie Morgan: My right hon. Friend will be aware that there is very little suitable and safe bail accommodation for women; in fact, many women prefer to be in prison because of the nature of the bail accommodation offered. Does he not agree that more and suitable bail accommodation for women and more support services to go with it are essential?

David Hanson: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. One of the purposes of the ClearSprings scheme is to ensure that women in particular can be bailed rather than await their sentences and court hearings in prison. That means that families can stay together and that many children are not taken into care. Ultimately, many of those women may not be given a custodial sentence. The scheme is an economic and efficient use of resources and it helps keep families together. I commend it to the House.

Daniel Rogerson: The Minister and I have corresponded on the ClearSprings proposals for Bodmin in my constituency. He will be aware that under Government guidelines there should have been consultation with the local authority. That did not take place on this occasion. Will the Minister agree to publish the evidence showing that there is a need for such a facility in Bodmin, and urgently review the instruction he has given ClearSprings to provide it?

David Hanson: From recollection, I should say that I have written to the hon. Gentleman in the past day or so about the scheme that might operate in the North Cornwall constituency. I shall certainly consider his objections. However, the issue remains: if, when ClearSprings proposes a property, the police or the local council object to it being used for such a purpose, it will be withdrawn from the potential use. If North Cornwall district council objects, we will certainly revisit the scheme and examine the hon. Gentleman's concerns.

Jeremy Wright: In respect of ClearSprings hostels, particularly the accommodation of offenders on home detention curfew, will the Minister confirm, first, that subject to any risk to the staff working in the hostel there is no exclusion for violent offenders and, secondly, no exclusion for persistent and prolific offenders? If he can confirm both those points, is he surprised that there is a significant level of local opposition to the hostels?

David Hanson: The hon. Gentleman will know—I am sure he does—that sex offenders subject to notification requirements under the Sex Offenders Act 1997, violent and sex offenders currently serving an extended sentence, prisoners who fail to comply with curfew orders, fine defaulters, foreign national prisoners, prisoners charged with homicide, causing explosions, possession of offensive weapons, possession of firearms, cruelty to children or racially aggravated offences, among others, are not entitled to home detention curfew. Prisoners who are on such curfew or are on remand in the community rather than taking up valuable prison places are thus prisoners who have committed lower categories of offences. I hope that that will reassure the hon. Gentleman.

Prison Places

Anne McIntosh: How many additional prison places have been created for young offenders and adult offenders since 1997.

Jack Straw: An additional 21,000 places have been provided since 1997, of which about 2,500 have been for young offenders.

Anne McIntosh: We learn that prisons are full and that those convicted of burglary and theft will not be given custodial sentences if they are addicted to drugs or other substances. What message are the Government sending to people who have been convicted, and in those circumstances how can he persuade them not to go on and reoffend?

Jack Straw: I am sorry to tell the hon. Lady that what she says is not correct. The Sentencing Guidelines Council recommendations on certain offenders are intended for consultation. If the hon. Lady or her colleagues on the Opposition Front Bench have comments to make about them, let us receive them.  [Interruption.] I have just received some of them. If the hon. Lady goes around prisons now or in six months' or a year's time, she will find that a large number of burglars—some prolific, some less prolific—and drug offenders are quite properly there because prison is where they should be. At the same time, however, Conservative Front Benchers have just issued some proposals—the hon. Lady needs to be aware of them—for a "rehabilitation revolution", so—

Mr. Speaker: Order.

Dari Taylor: Is it not time that we placed more emphasis on link and support workers so that when prisoners are on release, they have a chance of remaining within their community? Currently, 150 prisoners could be released from Holme House prison, yet there are only two link workers, so we would be asking them to do the impossible. We would need fewer prison places if we supported these prisoners more on release.

Jack Straw: I accept that we have to do more, but we have done a huge amount to improve training within prisons and to improve the link between training, probation and life outside prison; and through offender managers and probation officers we have sought to get serious offenders through prison and then through probation.

Philip Hollobone: What discussions has the Secretary of State had with the Home Secretary about making provision for 20,000 rehabilitation places so that hard drug users aged 18 to 25 can be offered a clear choice: either get rehabilitated and off drugs or go to prison? If we emphasised that if they fail to complete their rehabilitation, they will go to prison, would it not send out a clear message?

Jack Straw: I have many discussions with my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary about drug issues, which are at the root of so much crime—notwithstanding the fact that crime has come down so much over the past 11 years.  [Laughter.] It has come down by 30 per cent. across the country, including in nearly every constituency represented by Conservative Members.  [Interruption.] Hon. Members should not mock official statistics, which are now under the control of Parliament. Conservative Members are rightly happy to quote statistics against us, but they need to recognise the good work of the police, the probation service and their own local authorities in bringing crime down.
	On the hon. Gentleman's specific point, orders are already provided to courts by which precisely the choice that he mentions is given to drug users and drug offenders. The difficulty is not in laying down the law, but in ensuring that these people who lead very chaotic lives get the point. The reason the number breaching probation has gone up from 300 in 1997 to 5,000 today is partly the enforcement of such orders.

Madeleine Moon: At 40 per cent. less cost, community sentencing can deal with four times the number of people who are in prison. We know that community sentencing is 14 per cent. more successful in terms of the reoffending rate. Should we not be looking at extending community sentencing, rather than increasing prison places?

Jack Straw: We have to do both. We need to provide, and we are providing, an increase in prison places at a faster rate than has happened before. Alongside that, we are greatly strengthening the provision of probation. My right hon. Friend the Minister of State announced this morning an additional £40 million of funding for probation.

Dominic Grieve: In January, the Ministry of Justice claimed that the
	"current prison building programme...continues apace, with over 2,500 places to be delivered in 2008".
	How many of those 2,500 places are the shortfall on the failure to deliver on the 2,500 places promised for 2007 by the then Prime Minister, Mr. Blair? What prospect is there of their being delivered, given that the latest statistics suggest that, since December last year, the number of prison places has in fact fallen by one?

Jack Straw: The number of prison places has not fallen by one, I assure the hon. and learned Gentleman, because we continue to ensure maximum safe use of existing accommodation. In addition, last year, 1,522 places were provided; this year, he is right to say, we are providing about 2,500 additional places. We will continue to provide additional places up to the net 96,000 by 2014.

Drugs (Prisons)

Lyn Brown: What steps he is taking to tackle the availability of illegal drugs in prisons.

David Hanson: Prisons have a comprehensive framework of supply reduction measures and have achieved considerable success. Drug use as measured by random mandatory drug tests has dropped by 64 per cent. since 1996-97. I have announced today that the director general of the Prison Service has commissioned David Blakey, former inspector of constabulary, to conduct a review of the effectiveness of the measures to disrupt the supply of illicit drugs into prison.

Lyn Brown: I thank the Minister for his answer and welcome today's announcement on the control of the supply of drugs. Can he confirm that the review will include the tightening of controls around the smuggling of items such as mobile phones into prisons? I understand that some prisoners use mobile phones in their cells to continue the criminal, drug-related activity that they were happily pursuing outside.

David Hanson: I am grateful to my hon. Friend, because she highlights one of the key issues that we need to address—mobile phone usage in prison. We are examining closely what else we can do, and I am sure that the former inspector of constabulary, Mr. David Blakey, will consider that issue as a particular concern. We have employed mobile phone detectors in high-security prisons, and we are analysing recovered phones and working hard to monitor mobile phone traffic so as to take strong action. We will take further action in due course in the light of the report.

Geoffrey Cox: Dartmoor prison in my constituency has an excellent resettlement unit, but it has been devastated by a Prison Service decision to remove those who were working in the unit and ship in, as a result of overcrowding, people in the last few weeks of their sentence, thus undoing all the unit's good work. Will the Minister look into what has happened at Dartmoor prison and urgently restore the resettlement unit to do the good work it has been doing for the past few years?

David Hanson: Following Question Time, I will certainly look into the situation in Dartmoor, as I am not aware of the issues that the hon. and learned Gentleman raises. I give him an assurance that we are committed to ensuring that we have reintegration back into society and resettlement of prisoners when they leave prison, and to trying to make prisoners drug free and rehabilitated away from the problems that often led them into crime in the first place.

Linda Gilroy: May I support the point made by the hon. and learned Member for Torridge and West Devon (Mr. Cox)? When the Minister considers the issue, will he also look at schemes in Plymouth that try to stop the revolving-door syndrome, not just from Dartmoor prison but from Exeter prison, which has been doing some very good work but needs additional support?

David Hanson: I am keen to ensure that we take action on drugs in prison. The vast majority of people who go into prison have a drug problem. Unless we use their time in prison to tackle that problem and to reintegrate them into society, they will continue to have a drug problem outside, and that will lead to further crime.
	I am happy to look at the schemes in operation in Plymouth and at Exeter prison. We have already announced an additional 1,000 mandatory drug schemes in the community across the country for the next financial year, and I hope that the review announced today has given impetus to what else we can do to stop the vile trade of drugs in prison, which can involve people outside prison. We certainly need to take strong measures to stop that.

Christopher Chope: Is it not shameful that there is not a single drug-free prison in the country at the moment? Will the Minister accept my challenge to create one drug-free prison by the end of the year?

David Hanson: I point out to the hon. Gentleman, as I did in the answer, that there has been a 64 per cent. fall in drug use in prison in the past 10 years. I know, and I am sure that on reflection he knows, that it is immensely difficult for the Prison Service to prevent drugs from entering prisons in every circumstance— [Interruption.]— but I hope to do that. If he looks at the paper produced in January on the prison policy update, he will know that we are trying to introduce drug-free wings in prisons. One of this year's objectives is to secure and increase the number of drug-free wings in prison. I hope that we can have a drug-free prison in the next 12 months, but he will know that that is a tremendous challenge. We have improved matters with the 64 per cent. drop in drug use since his Government were in power and we intend to do more.

Fabian Hamilton: May I commend my right hon. Friend on the fall in the number of drugs circulating in prison? However, what can be done about the way in which some people outside prisons try to smuggle drugs in, not by coming into the prison, but by, for example, stuffing the bodies of dead birds with drugs and throwing them over the walls of the prison so that prisoners can retrieve them, as highlighted in the report of the all-party prison health group recently?

David Hanson: The Prison Service and the police are vigilant to all methods of trying to secure the flow of drugs into prison. We have to look at attempts to project material over walls into prisons. There are ways in which prisoners and people outside try to smuggle drugs in through the supplies to prisons. Occasionally, a very small number of staff are convicted of trying to smuggle drugs into prison. We take the problem extremely seriously. The continuing use of drugs in prison is one of the most dangerous aspects of prison life. I assure my hon. Friend that we will do all we can. Today's announcement, and indeed announcements that I hope to make in the next few days on further initiatives on drugs, will, I believe, reduce still further the amount of drugs in prison and improve on the 64 per cent. fall in drug use that we have achieved in the last 10 years of a Labour Government.

Humfrey Malins: The Minister's answers have been deeply unsatisfactory. A number of convicted women prisoners in Send prison in Surrey are bravely trying to tackle their drug addiction by going through the RAPt—the Rehabilitation for Addicted Prisoners Trust—12-step rehab programme. They tell me—is this not astonishing?—that their efforts are hindered by the ready availability of hard drugs throughout that prison. It is not just one prison that we need drug-free, but Send prison and many more need to be drug-free as well. We need action, not words.

David Hanson: I know that the hon. Gentleman takes a keen interest in the matter for genuine and important reasons. If he looks at the prison update policy paper produced in January, he will see that it records what we are doing: 440 active search dogs; CCTV surveillance on all social visit areas; low-level fixed furniture in category C prisons and above; measures taken in conjunction with the police to police visiting areas; mandatory drug testing with around 60,000 random and 40,000 targeted tests each year; telephone intelligence; new machinery to recover mobile phones; and the supply of good practice to prisons to help to have effective measures nationally.
	A tremendous amount of work is going on. The review that I announced today is a precursor to further recommendations coming to the Government by May this year. I intend to make further statements to the House before the end of the week on other measures that we are taking. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will support us in those efforts.

Community Sentences

Si�n Simon: What assessment he has made of the effectiveness of non-custodial community sentences in preventing reoffending.

Jack Straw: Not all the data that I am about to give can be explained by the sentences imposed. That said, the latest available data for the 2004 cohort of adult offenders show that reoffending by those serving community sentences decreased by 6.7 per cent. between 2000 and 2004. Among the 2004 cohort of offenders the proven rate of adult reoffending within two years of custodial sentences was 64.7 per cent., compared to 50.5 per cent. in the case of community sentences.

Si�n Simon: I am grateful to the Secretary of State for his answer and I am glad that everything is going so well with adult non-custodial sentences, but when I visited the Erdington youth offending service team last week I was struck by the wide variety of strategies and programmes existing under the overall umbrella of non-custodial sentences. Will the Secretary of State tell us a little about how the Department assesses programmes, and how it decides what works and what does not? It is important to be able to explain that to people. Perhaps the Secretary of State would like to meet me for a little chat about it.

Jack Straw: Yes to the little chat, or even a long chat.
	It is fundamental to the effectiveness of and public confidence in community sentences, whether they are imposed on juveniles or adults, that they work and are rigorously assessed. My Department and the Home Office spend a considerable amount of public money on research and statistics to ensure that that happens. The new chair of the Youth Justice Board [Interruption.] She is a woman, which is why I am not calling her the chairman. She is well aware of the importance of ensuring the effectiveness of community sentences.

Elfyn Llwyd: A few weeks ago, I had an exchange with the Secretary of State about the possibility of introducing phased community penalties. The first few months would be devoted to getting people off drugs, while the next few months would be concerned with employment and reintregrating people in society. Would either the Secretary of State or the Minister of State be prepared to meet me, and representatives of the National Association of Probation Officers, to discuss the matter further?

Jack Straw: Of course. There is no single truth about how such sentences can be made to work better, but we all agree about the aim. The more effective we can make themand there is no monopoly in ideasthe better it will be for our communities.

Ian Lucas: Given that we know that non-custodial sentences are just as effective in preventing reoffending as custodial sentences, why do the courts still persist, in breach-of-trust cases, in sending individuals who pose no danger to the public to prison for long terms? Is it not time that we adopted a different approach to, for instance, those who commit theft from employers, and punished them effectively in the community rather than in prison?

Jack Straw: It is important for the courts to have at their disposal a wide range of sentences to deem appropriate in the circumstances with which they are dealing. It is an important part of our democracy that we have an independent judiciary, and that we do not criticise sentences when they are passed but rely on the judgment of the judiciary. As for breach of trust, I fear that my hon. Friend and I may simply take different views. My view is that it is an aggravated element of an offence if someone who is trusted by his employer to hold money egregiously breaks that trust.

Mark Harper: How many prisoners who are currently serving short sentences does the Secretary of State think should not be in prison?

Jack Straw: That is an interesting question, which both the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (David Davis) and the hon. and learned Member for Harborough (Mr. Garnier) have sought to answer. The right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden has said that he wants prisoners not to be remanded in custody if they can safely be remanded elsewhere. The question is how we can make bail and non-custodial sentences as effective as possible. That will include measures such as home detention curfew and tagging, to which the Conservatives have objected but which is one of many measures that have led to much safer communities. Notwithstanding the mocking laughter that we hear from Conservative Members, the fact is that the public are increasingly aware that crime has fallen under this Government, whereas under the Conservative Government it doubled.

Prison Overcrowding

Andrew Rosindell: How many convicted criminals served reduced sentences as a result of prison overcrowding in each of the last four years.

Maria Eagle: End-of-custody licence was introduced on 29 June 2007. Under the scheme, up to 31 January 2008 18,583 prisoners serving sentences of between four weeks and four years were released up to 18 days earlier than they otherwise would have been.

Andrew Rosindell: As the Minister says, since the Prime Minister came to office in June 2007 more than 18,000 prisoners have benefited from the early release system. They have also gone on to commit 300 crimes and at least one murder. Will the Minister undertake to end this crisis once and for all, and commit here today that in future she will keep these people behind bars where they belong and that the capacity in our prisons will be increased?

Maria Eagle: No, I will not commit to that. The hon. Gentleman is right that 1 per cent. of those released on end-of-custody licence have reoffended while on licence, and that is of course regrettable. However, it is not the case that saying today that end-of-custody licence will end would solve this problem. In order to end the licences, we would immediately have to find some 1,300 places at any one time. We have said that this is a temporary measure and that we will keep under constant review when it ought to come to an end, but today is not the time to end it.

Andrew MacKay: Should courts not be obliged to set minimum sentences in every single case, thus eradicating at a stroke the scandal of prisoners being released early just because of prison overcrowding, rather than because it is in the national interest?

Maria Eagle: A healthy debate on sentencing is taking place within parties and in this House, and that will no doubt continue. However, the right hon. Gentleman seems to be suggesting that the introduction of end-of-custody licences was the first time in the history of Parliament that convicted criminals had been released earlyin this case 18 days earlybut that is untrue. In 1984, the Government that he supported changed parole eligibility to let people out on parole earlier. In 1986, they extended remission for good behaviour to those serving under 12 months from a third to a half, thus allowing out early a whole load of convicted criminals. In 1992, they introduced automatic release at the halfway point of

Mr. Speaker: Order. I think the point has been made.

Jennifer Willott: Given the evidence that a fundamental part of rehabilitation is the education and training opportunities that prisoners have in prison, and given that there are long waiting lists for those courses and that the increased use of early release makes it much harder for prisoners to complete the courses before they leave, what is the Department doing to ensure that prisoners who are released early are able to continue with the education and training they undertake in prison, to enable them to rehabilitate successfully afterwards?

Maria Eagle: The hon. Lady raises some interesting points. The entire concept of offender management means that we are in a much better position to ensure that the courses that prisoners start while in prison can either be completed or continued outside in the community. We have done that by making sure that the adult education and basic skills courses available in prison are the same as those available outside prison. Offender management means that when the probation service takes over the care of released offenders it can ensure that the correct opportunities are available to them, which will help both to reduce the chances of their reoffending and, it is to be hoped, to reintegrate them into society properly.

Henry Bellingham: Is it not obvious from these exchanges that the publicour constituentsare being put at risk because of the Government's failing prisons policy? Is it true that since June 2007, 700 early release offenders have been recalled but, staggeringly, 124 are still at large? Why are they still at large, what is being done to apprehend them, and what offences did the 124 commit?

Maria Eagle: My understanding is that 4 per cent. of those released early on end-of-custody licence have been recalled, and that amounts to 673 people. They may have been recalled for a number of offences, but obviously they are in breach of their licence. Some 1 per cent., or 257 people, have reoffended in various ways. The Ministry of Justice regularly produces figures on these matters, so there is no attempt to hide that. Whenever anybody comes out it is possible that they will reoffendsome do and some do notbut these numbers are quite low compared with other types of release.

Court Cases (Local Media)

Robert Goodwill: What representations he has received on the cost of providing details of forthcoming court cases to local media outlets.

Bridget Prentice: Two representations have been made in relation to the cost of providing copies of court lists and magistrates courts registers to the press.

Robert Goodwill: The cost of providing the lists to the  Scarborough Evening News has risen from 800 to a prohibitive 15,000. Does the Minister agree with that newspaper's editor, Mr. Ed Asquith, who says that that will be welcomed by criminals, whose crimes and punishments will no longer be covered in the local newspaper, and that the court system will lose much of its deterrent power?

Bridget Prentice: I am delighted for the hon. Gentleman; he managed to get a good plug for his local newspaper into his question.
	On the costs, there is a minimum fee of 5 for up to 10 sheets and 50p thereafter for a copy of any document provided by the court. I agree that local newspapers' reporting is an important part of the court system, and indeed of the democratic process, both as a deterrent, as he mentioned, and as a way of allowing victims and others to know exactly what has happened in court. I shall examine the costs carefully, but the hon. Gentleman will understand that we are talking about costs to the public purse and we must ensure that they are appropriate in the circumstances.

Prison Building Programme

Greg Hands: What his most recent assessment is of progress on the prison building programme.  [Official Report, 18 March 2008, Vol. 473, c. 6MC.]

Jack Straw: The Government have announced a programme to provide an additional 20,000 prison places and increase overall capacity to just over 96,000 by 2014. As I explained, the programme has already provided 1,746 places, and it will provide about another 2,500 places this year.

Greg Hands: Why are the Government pressing ahead with titan prisons? All my experience as a former prison visitor at Her Majesty's Prison Wormwood Scrubs, which is an enormous establishment, suggests that local and smaller prisons are far more likely to reduce reoffending and increase rehabilitation.

Jack Straw: What we also know, from the Carter report and much other experience both in the UK and in the United States, is that we must balance the issue of smaller prisonsI understand that they are desired, but they are not desired in the communities in which we may wish to put themand the practicalities of being able to find fewer but larger sites for large prisons. What we are also determined to do, as we are doing with the cluster on the Isle of Sheppey and we will do with that in the Bromsgrove-Redditch area, is to ensure that within the perimeters we improve efficiency by merging back office functions and ensuring that there are different regimes for different categories of prisoner.

Chris Bryant: One of the problems we face in south Wales is the lack of capacity in Welsh prisons, which means that many prisoners end up going to prisons further afieldin Englandand it is very difficult for families and friends to visit. Can the Justice Secretary say what plans he has to increase the capacity of prisons in Wales? Does he find that many local authorities tend towards nimbyism and very much fight against having local prisons?

Jack Straw: The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice, my right hon. Friend the Member for Delyn (Mr. Hanson), has both responsibility for prisons and the privilege of representing a Welsh constituency. He is on the case, consulting widely with a view to ensuring that additional prison capacity is available in Wales.

Tony Baldry: A not insignificant number of prison places are taken up by foreign prisoners who have completed their sentences. When I tabled a number of questions to the Secretary of State on the number of such prisoners in, for example, Bullingdon prison, the questions were transferred to the Home Office. Surely the Secretary of State for Justice has a real interest in ensuring that foreign prisoners who have completed their sentences are removed from prison and deported. The fewer places they take up, the less pressure there will be to build new prisons.

Jack Straw: The hon. Gentleman is right that I have a very real interest in that. There are many spirited conversations between my officials and those at the Home Office, and between the Home Secretary and me, about ensuring that time-sentenced foreign national prisoners are removed from the country as quickly as possible by deportation or administrative means. That said, it happens that since they then become the responsibility of the Border and Immigration Agency, it falls to the Home Office to answer detailed statistical questions.

Rehabilitation

Nia Griffith: What measures he has put in place to increase co-operation with other Government Departments to improve the rehabilitation of offenders.

David Hanson: The new public service agreements, in particular those on making communities safer and on socially excluded adults, provide important levers to support a cross-Government focus on offender rehabilitation and reducing reoffending. To provide strategic direction for that work, and to promote an effective cross-Government partnership response, the Under-Secretary of State for Innovation, Universities and Skills, my hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham (Mr. Lammy), and I chair a reducing reoffending interministerial group, which includes Ministers from 15 Departments.

Nia Griffith: Will the Minister talk to colleagues in the Department of Health about making treatment and support available at all GPs' surgeries to ex-offenders who have drug-related problems, instead of forcing vulnerable people to travel a long way to centres, en route to which they can be ambushed by drug pushers who are lying in wait for them?

David Hanson: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. We will certainly ensure that we try to support people leaving prison who have a history of using drugs while in prison and before. That is important to the reducing reoffending agenda. Ministers in both the Department of Health and the National Assembly for Wales sit on the interministerial group that I chair. We are considering positive solutions to ensure that we integrate care, so that offenders who leave prison have the support that they need to help them to reduce their reoffending behaviour.

Topical Questions

David Chaytor: If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.

Jack Straw: This morning I published the report of Her Majesty's chief inspectors of court administration, of the police and of the Crown Prosecution Service on the historical problems at Leeds magistrates court. I said in an accompanying written ministerial statement that the inspectorate's report painted a lamentable picture of the historical failure there with regard to court adjudications, most of which occurred between 2001 and 2004. I drew the House's attention to the fact that, since April 2005, the control and management of the magistrates court service has no longer been a matter for autonomous local magistrates courts committees but one for Her Majesty's Courts Service, which was established under the Courts Act 2003.

David Chaytor: My right hon. Friend will recall the substantial vote last March in favour of a wholly elected upper House. What progress is he making towards implementing proposals for the reform of the upper House? Does he agree that the question of the voting system in that House cannot be entirely dissociated from the debate about the future voting system for this House?

Jack Straw: On the progress of the reform of the other place, I am pleased to tell my hon. Friend that we have a cross-party group, including representatives of the Opposition Front Bench, the Liberal Democrats, the Cross Benchers and the Lords Spiritual. It is making good progress within the clear mandate set by this House for a second Chamber that is either 100 per cent. or 80 per cent. elected.
	The voting system is a matter of great debate among parties, and my hon. Friend and I might have slightly different views on the matter.

Madeleine Moon: There is growing concern about the explicit details on so-called suicide websites about methods that can be used. What steps can the Government take to control the content of such sites and restrict access to them?

Jack Straw: We are as concerned as my hon. Friend, her constituents and people across the country about these appalling websites. The Under-Secretary of State for Justice, my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Garston (Maria Eagle), is looking into the matter urgently. As my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgend (Mrs. Moon) will know, dealing with websitesparticularly if the servers are abroadis technically difficult, but we aim to do our best in those circumstances and to make an announcement as quickly as possible.

David Howarth: May I bring the Secretary of State back to a previous answer that he gave to the hon. Member for Bridgend (Mrs. Moon)? There seems to be an inherent contradiction between on the one hand praising the effectiveness of community sentences, as well as the perfectly sensible remarks made by the Secretary of State at the  Guardian criminal justice summit, which have been rather unfairly criticised, and on the other hand announcing that more and bigger prisons will be built. Does the Secretary of State not accept that important lessons can be learned from countries such as Denmark, where the crime rate is equivalent to that in this country but the incarceration rate is much lower and the success rate for prisoner rehabilitation is much higher?

Jack Straw: We want to learn from the experiences of countries across the world. It just happens, for all sorts of reasons, that Denmark has a lower prison population per head than we do. The crucial test of a penal policy should not be the arbitrary figure of the number of prisoners per head of population, but whether the overall policies are working to make our communities safer and to reduce levels of victimisation. I have put the Government's record in perspective. There is the lowest level of victimisation since the British crime survey was established by the Conservatives in 1981. Crime has come down, but there are still many serious violent and persistent offenders at large. Telling our constituents whether the overall aggregate record is down or up serves no purpose if they have been the victim of a crime.

Henry Bellingham: Reoffending?

Jack Straw: Reoffending is also greatly improving, and I note that the Conservative party promises to cut 12,000 prison places through its so-called rehabilitation revolution. However, we will learn from anybody.

John Mann: The unnecessary staking of headstones in graveyards across the country by zealous burial authorities continues apace. Is there any good news on progress towards issuing some appropriate health and safety guidance so that we can get rid of that monstrosity?

Bridget Prentice: My hon. Friend makes an important point. I know that he is already qualified as a topple tester. He is right that we must deal with the issue with proportion and so on. We are keen to see that local authorities respond in a proportionate fashion and that they realise the sensitivity of the work that has to be done as well as making sure that it is done with health and safety in mind in a way that deals with the matter when the situation is dangerous rather than in an unnecessarily over-bureaucratic fashion.

Nick Herbert: Does the Lord Chancellor not understand that it is profoundly un-British to demand that the public swear oaths of allegiance, subscribe to statements of values or fly flags in their lawns? The public will surely see straight through synthetic patriotism. Last week, the Culture Minister attacked the BBC Proms. Why should the public have anything to learn from this Government about Britishness?

Jack Straw: I am a long-time Prom-goer; I love the Proms. I am entitled to say that I did not agree with what my right hon. Friend the Member for Barking (Margaret Hodge) said about the Proms. My judgment is not hers. As for flying flags, I am proud to be British. We have done a great deal. No party has the monopoly on being British and being proud of it. I remind the hon. Gentleman that some of his colleagues proposed that we did more to ensure that the Union flag was flown from Government buildings and Portcullis House. We have ensured that that is done.

Nick Herbert: But surely 10 years of learning about British history would be more valuable to instil an understanding of British values than a 10-minute ceremony for 16-year-olds? Does the Justice Secretary really think that British values can be reduced to a slogan or a statement of values drawn up by focus groups at the taxpayer's expense?

Jack Straw: The hon. Gentleman ought to read the report and proposals of my noble and learned Friend Lord Goldsmithhe may have done so but not digested themand there ought to be proper debate about them. I doubt that the hon. Gentleman's views are shared by many other people on the Conservative Benches.
	Secondly, we now have citizenship ceremonies for new citizens. When they were introduced there was some scepticism about them on both sides of the House, but they have turned out to be valued rites of passage for new British people who are becoming British citizens. There is a lot to be said for our getting across to existing British citizensborn British, not adopted Britishwhat it means to be British. It should not be a party issue.

Alan Beith: Has the Lord Chancellor recently requested a factual paper from the Treasury on the Barnett formula? Even though the formula is much, much older than devolution, the perception of devolution in England is undoubtedly affected by its existence and the fact that it is overdue for reform.

Jack Straw: I have not needed to request papers on the Barnett formula, because the way it operates is perfectly public. Briefing is available from the Library and the formula has been used by successive Governments, includingin unamended formthe Administration between 1979 and 1997.

John Baron: The Secretary of State will be aware that an organisation called ClearSprings is, on behalf of the Government, buying residential properties in Basildon district to house offenders released early from prison. Given the complete lack of consultation with local residents on the issue, which means that they could wake up one day to find that they were living next door to an open prison, will the Secretary of State cancel those plans for Basildon district, which are being seen only as a way of reducing prison overcrowding by stealth?

David Hanson: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for raising that issue. I looked into a number of the concerns that had been raised recently about ClearSprings properties. There was concern in Basildon and I looked into whether the Conservative-controlled district council, had exercised its veto. I have to report to the hon. Gentleman that had the council done so, we would not be proceeding with the properties in Basildon. The Conservative-controlled district council in Basildon did not veto the proposals

John Baron: Was it consulted?

David Hanson: It was consulted, as were the police and I am aware of that because my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon (Angela E. Smith) also has such properties and has referred to me recent press coverage in Basildon on the matter. The Conservative-controlled district council did not veto the properties.

Ben Chapman: Is not the absence of a financial limit on election expenditure on campaigning outside an election period, in effect, the buying of votes? It is an anomaly that ought to be corrected urgently. For that reason, is it not time that we stopped talking about it and actually did something?

Jack Straw: As my hon. Friend will be aware, the report of the inquiry and review by Sir Hayden Phillips recommended that there was a strong case for limits on spending to apply both locally and nationally for a whole Parliament and not just for a period beforehand. In addition, one of the wholly unintended consequences of the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000 was that far from local controls being made strongeras was believed by both main partiesthey have actually been made shorter and weaker. We were aware of that, but it is also important, which is why we are giving the matter consideration, that there should be a broad consensus for changes in party funding, because it cannot and should not be used as a partisan tool in the hands of one party or another.

Greg Mulholland: Today's extraordinary reports into the events at Leeds magistrates court have uncovered an astonishing example of systematic and deliberate abuse. With regard to the collusion that appears to have happened between Leeds magistrates court, West Yorkshire police and West Yorkshire Crown Prosecution Service, does the Secretary of State agree that it was a deliberate attempt to withdraw warrants when they should not have been withdrawn? With regard to the whole episode, does he agree that it may be appropriate to pursue criminal charges, because it was clearly a deliberate attempt to undermine justice?

Jack Straw: The matter is very serious indeed; I have made that clear. In my judgment, the issue arose partly because of the shambolic way in which the local magistrates ran the magistrates courts committee, and the lack of effective administration. As the hon. Gentleman will recognise, the inspectorate praised the work of Her Majesty's Courts Service, which took control of Leeds magistrates court, and other magistrates courts, in 2005. The protocol came as an astonishing surprise to me. It is in appendix 12 of the report, which contains the extraordinary phrase about the need to get rid of outstanding warrants. He will forgive me, but I cannot comment on disciplinary processes that are taking place, except to say that they are being pursued, as I do not wish to prejudice their outcome.

Mark Pritchard: Following on from the question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Arundel and South Downs (Nick Herbert), does the Secretary of State believe that allegiance should be sworn to the United Kingdom, to Her Majesty the Queen, or to an emerging federal president of Europe?

Jack Straw: Not the latter, in any circumstances, whether the president is federal or otherwise; I say that to reassure the hon. Gentleman. I should say to him, before he gets too excited about the issue, that if he looks at the pledges that new citizens are required to make, he will see that there is an oath of allegiance to Her Majesty the Queenwe are a constitutional monarchy and, so far as my party and I am concerned, long may that continueand a pledge of loyalty to other citizens in the United Kingdom.

Clive Efford: May I draw my right hon. Friend's attention to a situation that my constituent found himself in? He was returned to prison while on a home curfew tag. He found a job that required him to leave home 15 minutes before his curfew ended in the morning, and as a result he was returned to prison. Surely the administration of the system should be able to cope with a request for an alteration to curfew hours in cases where somebody is actually trying to rehabilitate themselves. Will my right hon. Friend look into the matter, and perhaps make the system more flexible to meet people's needs?

David Hanson: My hon. Friend raises an important point. I will certainly look into whether we can ensure flexibility in genuine cases where there are issues to do with employment or other matters. I will certainly reflect on the matter, and I will write to my hon. Friend in due course.

Greg Hands: My constituency's population is growing rapidly; in fact, in the 2001 election, it was the constituency with the second largest population in Britain after the Isle of Wight. The next parliamentary boundary review will not take effect until after the next election, and will be based on data from 2000 that precede the 2001 census. Will the Secretary of State commit himself to having more frequent parliamentary boundary reviews, using data that are forward-looking, rather than backward-looking?

Jack Straw: The hon. Gentleman raises an important point, and I broadly agree with him. What we need is more frequent reviews, and reviews that take account of population, rather than being based simply on electoral rolls, because electoral rolls are not necessarily a clear surrogate for population. As he says, the reviews should be forward-looking, rather than very outdated, as they sometimes are. I am happy to meet him to discuss the matter.

Nicholas Winterton: I thank the Under-Secretary of State for Justice, the hon. Member for Lewisham, East (Bridget Prentice), for the courtesy and time that she gave me last week when I met her to discuss my concern about the secrecy surrounding family courts. Would she not agree that natural parents should get more justice, and more rights, in the family courts system?

Bridget Prentice: I was very happy to meet the hon. Gentleman to discuss a particular case in his constituency. I would say to him that, first and foremost, the family courts must look after the interests of the child. It is on that basis that they must move forward. Of course, they must also take into account the evidence that is put in front of them, but the most important thing is to ensure the child's safety and protection.

Environmental Protection Act 1990 (Amendment)

Bernard Jenkin: I beg to move,
	That leave be given to bring in a Bill to amend Part II of the Environmental Protection Act 1990 in relation to the duties, powers and functions of waste regulation authorities concerning the unauthorised deposit of controlled waste on land; and for connected purposes.
	The purpose of the Bill is to promote serious discussion about a shortcoming in the 1990 Act on fly-tipping. For that purpose, the sponsors of the Bill include a distinguished array of former Ministers from both sides of the House, including a former Secretary of State for the Environment and three former Environment Ministers, one of whom, my right hon. Friend the Member for Wells (Mr. Heathcoat-Amory), has joined me today. The Bill also has the support of the Country Landowners Association and the National Farmers Union.
	The 1990 Act was a legislative landmark passed under the previous Conservative Government that established the Environment Agency. Among other matters, it sets out the law on the treatment of fly-tipping. The House has long been aware of the problems caused by fly-tipping for both private and public landowners.
	The journey of the Bill to the Floor of the House began on a farm belonging to my constituent, Mr. David Gibbon, from whom I declare I have accepted hospitality, though below the threshold for declaration in the register. In August last year, a lorry was caught red-handed dumping bags of asbestos on Mr. Gibbon's farm at South Fambridge in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Rayleigh (Mr. Francois), who I am pleased to see in his place and who, I am sure, would have sponsored the Bill had he not been on the Opposition Front Bench. The manager at the farm in question, who had been wisely advised not to approach such criminals on his own, took the vehicle registration details and immediately called the police. The Environment Agency was also subsequently informed.
	I regret to inform the House that neither Essex police nor the Environment Agency took any substantial interest in the crime. Despite the fact that asbestos was bagged, correctly tagged and therefore lawfully removed from wherever it came from, and an address was found among the rubbish, little investigation was carried out. The vehicle registration, of course, proved to be false, and the only conclusion to be drawn was that it was the act of a rogue trader. At this point, the story ends, and no public authority took any further interest in the matter.
	My constituent initially refused to remove the dumped asbestos, on the very reasonable basis that it was not his responsibility. Ironically, if it had been dumped a mere 6 ft in a different direction, it would have been the responsibility of the highways authority and would automatically have been removed by the Environment Agency. As the Minister stated in a letter to me dated 1 November last year:
	Where there is fly-tipping on public land, the local authority or the Environment Agency will bear the cost of removal and any subsequent investigation. However, clearing illegally dumped waste from privately owned land is more difficult.
	I see the Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, the hon. Member for Lewisham, Deptford (Joan Ruddock) is in her place and kindly listening to the debate.
	Eventually Mr. Gibbon had to pay almost 3,000 for the waste to be removed by a private contractor. Under the law as it stands, responsible victims of such a crime are forced to pay up, while the perpetrators get off scot-free. Mr. Gibbon did not, under section 33 of the 1990 Act
	deposit controlled waste, or knowingly cause or knowingly permit controlled waste to be deposited,
	but according to the Environment Agency, the fact that he had been fly-tipped meant that he was in violation of section 33(1)(b) because he was, as the 1990 Act describes it, keeping controlled waste on his land. He was therefore committing a criminal offence for no other reason than that he himself was a victim of a crime.
	The problem that my Bill seeks to address is simple. Rubbish dumped on public land automatically becomes the responsibility of the local authority or the Environment Agency to clear up, but those authorities are not responsible for clearing up rubbish dumped on private land. On the contrary, if a private landowner does not clear it up, the Environment Agency will prosecute them for not doing so. That is grossly unfair on private landowners, who, by being the victims of crime, become criminals in the eyes of the law.
	The problem is not uncommon. An Environment Agency survey published in January 2007 shows that 16 per cent. of farms in England and Wales suffered fly-tipping over a 12-month period. As Mr. Gibbon's case makes clear, the cost of clean-up can be very expensive. Indeed, the Waste Management (England and Wales) Regulations 2006 have only increased the costs for private landowners. Since I began work on the Bill, a number of similar cases have been brought to my attention. For example, Freddie de Lisle in Hungarton in Leicestershire had to pay 435 to have suspected asbestos removed from his land after it was illegally dumped. In Wales, the Powys castle estate had to pay out more than 1,000 over the course of three incidents involving clothing, a burnt-out car and two unmarked 45-gallon oil drums.
	The issue does not only affect farmers. Nottinghamshire Wildlife Trust recently announced that it is considering closing its woodlands because of fly-tipping. The costs of the continual clear-ups are eating into its limited resources, which are, of course, charitable. Removing the waste is not only expensive but time-consuming and potentially dangerous. A farm worker in Nottingham was injured when an aerosol can exploded as he tried to burn the timber element of some waste, and he was off work for three months as a result of his injuries.
	At present, landowners feel helpless, so it is not surprising that 50 per cent. of those who are suffering from fly-tipping do not bother to report it. Why should they, if it does not lead to a proper investigation of the incident or any prospect of a prosecution? In a 2006 survey, farmers said that in only 22 per cent. of cases had the police investigated their complaints, even though fly-tipping is a criminal offence.
	I am grateful to the Country Land and Business Association for its assistance in drafting the Bill, which aims to protect landowners from an over-zealous interpretation of the present law. I propose two changes. The first would place an obligation on the Environment Agency or the relevant local authority to remove waste if the landowner
	did not knowingly cause or knowingly permit
	the waste to be deposited.
	In her letter, the Under-Secretary claimed that that would create a fly-tippers' charter, but that is nonsense, because the law as it stands is a fly-tippers' charter. The Environment Agency already automatically picks up all the rubbish on public land. The Government may fear rogue landowners who would encourage illegal fly-tipping on their land for backhanders, but the Environment Agency would still have the power to serve a clear-up notice on such a landowner, if it suspected their involvement, which might include failure to take reasonable steps to prevent such illegal dumping.
	My second proposed change would place a duty on the relevant authority to investigate incidents of fly-tipping. As the Minister said in her correspondence, that would place additional burdens on authorities, which already have to remove waste dumped on public land. However, the present law is clearly absurd. What is the point of having a criminal offence of fly-tipping on the statute book, if nobody is even going to investigate those crimes?
	The case for the changes is clear. Far from creating a fly-tippers' charter, the obligation to investigate and prosecute would help to deter fly-tipping. It is ludicrously unfair that public and private landowners are treated in such grossly different ways. I repeat that had the asbestos in Mr. Gibbon's case been 6 ft away from where it was, he would not have been responsible for its disposal and that duty would have fallen on a public authority.
	I should inform the House that I am disappointed that the Government have indicated that they are not going to support the Bill, because of the additional duties that it would place on local authorities and the Environment Agency. Furthermore, the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs has expressed his concern that it might encourage illegal dumping. I hope that the House will agree, however, that I have addressed both those concerns. In any case, the Government are welcome to amend my Bill as it makes progress through the House.
	What is the point of the Environment Agency, if it will not actively investigate and deter illegal dumping? Moreover, active investigation and prosecution of fly-tippers should lead to reduced burdens on the public sector, as well as to a cleaner environment. The agency itself recognises its ineffectiveness, saying that
	fly-tipping on agricultural land is a significant problem in England and Wales.
	The Bill offers concrete measures to protect landowners against fly-tipping and to increase investigations by the authorities to deal with that growing problem. I therefore commend it to the House before we find more and more copies of the Lisbon treaty dumped on public and private land throughout this country.
	 Question put and agreed to.
	Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Bernard Jenkin, Mr. John Gummer, Mr. Tim Yeo, Mr. Michael Meacher, Mr. Malcolm Moss, Kate Hoey, Mr. Elfyn Llwyd, Mr. David Crausby, Tony Baldry, Mr. Alan Meale, Lembit pik and Mr. David Heathcoat-Amory.

Environmental Protection Act 1990 (Amendment)

Mr. Bernard Jenkin accordingly presented a Bill to amend Part II of the Environmental Protection Act 1990 in relation to the duties, powers and functions of waste regulation authorities concerning the unauthorised deposit of controlled waste on land; and for connected purposes: And the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time on Friday 25 April, and to be printed [Bill 86].

Orders of the Day
	  
	CONSOLIDATED FUND (APPROPRIATION) BILL

Order for Second Reading read.
	 Question, That the Bill be now read a Second time,  put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 56 (Consolidated Fund Bills), and agreed to.
	 Bill accordingly read a Second time.
	 Question, That the Bill be now read the Third time,  put forthwith, and agreed to.
	 Bill accordingly read the Third time, and passed.

European Union (Amendment) Bill
	  
	[12th Allotted Day]

Order for Third Reading read. [Queen's Consent, on behalf of the Crown, signified.]

David Miliband: I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.
	On Third Reading, it is traditional to recognise the contribution of all sides to the debate on the Bill, and happily, in this case, I have a lot of material to draw on. Since I introduced the Bill on Second Reading nine weeks ago, six Secretaries of State and shadow Secretaries of State have spoken to the House. The scrutiny process in Committee has totalled some 560,000 wordsfive and a half times the length of the consolidated treaty itself. I hope that the House will allow me to highlight a small number of outstanding contributors to our

Ian Davidson: Will the Foreign Secretary give way?  [ Laughter. ]

David Miliband: indicated assent.

Ian Davidson: Will the Foreign Secretary tell me the difference between the Liberals' full participation in debate and their policy of constructive abstention, as they seem to amount to pretty much the same thing?

Hon. Members: There's only one of them!

David Miliband: Talking of outstanding contributors, I see that my hon. Friend could not resist the temptation to intervene, but I am sure that the quality of the remarks of the hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr. Davey) will make up for the lack of quantity

Ian Davidson: No.

David Miliband: Maybe my hon. Friend is not convinced.
	I want to pay tribute to some of the hon. Members who have genuinely contributed outstandingly to our proceedings. I start by paying tribute to the right hon. Member for Richmond, Yorks (Mr. Hague). I believe his approach to Europe to be utterly antediluvian, but he has prosecuted his case in an absolutely brilliant fashion and re-established his reputation as one of the outstanding debaters of our times.
	The hon. Member for Stone (Mr. Cash) has demonstrated again his long-standing commitment to these issues, tabling 154 amendments and making 209 interventions in our proceedings [ Interruption. ]so far. That is not an invitation for him to intervene now. He has been indefatigable in asserting, first, that he has been consistent every year since 1992, which is correct, and, secondly, that he has always been right in warning that the European superstate is about to gobble us up, about which I believe he is profoundly wrong. He and I rarely see eye to eye on these matters, but he has been active on every day of our scrutiny of the treaty and the Bill, and I pay tribute to his persistence.

Ian Lucas: Will the Foreign Secretary give way?

David Miliband: I was about to come to my hon. Friend, but I am happy to give way.

Ian Lucas: I was simply going to ask the Foreign Secretary whether he agrees that one of the most enlightening parts of the debate is that the hon. Member for Stone (Mr. Cash) clearly leads for the Conservative party on these matters?

David Miliband: In the spirit of good cheer, I do not want to insult the shadow Foreign Secretary, but I assure my hon. Friend that I will deal with the striking similarities between the hon. Member for Stone and Conservative Front Benchers in due course.
	My right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester, West (Ms Hewitt) and my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Rob Marris) have shown the value of reading the treaty, and they made a series of telling speeches and interventions. My hon. Friend the Member for Ilford, South (Mike Gapes), who chairs the Foreign Affairs Committee, and my hon. Friend the Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk (Michael Connarty), who chairs the European Scrutiny Committeethey are both in their places, as they have been throughout our proceedingshave informed our debates with their genuine expertise.
	I hope that the House will allow me to mention my hon. Friend the Minister for Europe, who has shown a wider audience what many of us always knewnamely, that he has patience and humour as well as keen intelligence and deep political skills. My only fear is that he may have talked himself out of the Foreign Office before he gets to go abroad and meet some foreigners. I hope that I am wrong.
	Last week, we debated how to pass the treaty into law. Today, we are debating whether to do so. The central question is whether it is a good treaty for the UK and for Europe. The Government and every mainstream political party in Europe believe that the answer is yes, because the reforms make sense. The treaty reforms the foundations of the EU, which have developed since 1958, and the reforms will allow us to move on to the agenda of prosperity, development and climate change, which we all agree is the essence of the EU's role.

Michael Ancram: One question has not been answered in our lengthy debate. Where is the mandate for the Government to take the Bill through without seeking the consent of the British people in any form whatsoever?

David Miliband: We debated that at length last week. The House gave its answer by a majority of 63 on that question.

Chris Bryant: Part of the mandate derives from the fact that there have been 44 Divisions so far on the Bill and the average majority has been 170, which is rather different from what happened when the Maastricht treaty was considered. We have had a two thirds majority on nearly every Division.

David Miliband: My hon. Friend has regularly contributed to the debate, and he makes a good point.
	We set out our arguments in favour of the treaty in Committee, but let me summarise them in three main points. First, the treaty creates clear, coherent objectives for EU activity in Europe and globally. We share those objectives and have played a leading role in shaping them.
	Secondly, the Lisbon treaty streamlines the institutions and decision-making processes of the EU, so that it can better deliver on the matters that we all agree should be handled at European level.
	Thirdly, it makes the EU more accountable to member states and national Parliaments.
	I have set out many times the treaty's contents, from bigger voting weight for the UK to opt-ins on justice and home affairs. Today, I want to make another attempt to convince the Conservative party that it cannot say that it wants a Europe that delivers on open markets, climate change, development, counter-terrorism and post-conflict reconstruction, and at the same time not only oppose the Bill but say that it is the end of Britain as we know it.

Geraldine Smith: Will my right hon. Friend confirm again that, if the treaty is carried and ratified by Europe, we will not have a European constitution? Some people still do not get that.

David Miliband: My hon. Friend makes an important point, as she did in her speech last week. We are considering an amending treaty, which amends, for the fifth time, the institutions of the EU to make the EU work better.

Bernard Jenkin: The Foreign Secretary repeats that the treaty will streamline, improve and achieve wonderful things. However, the EU has failed to deliver the Lisbon agenda on competitiveness; its accounts have not been signed off for the past 13 years; and we cannot automatically deport foreign criminals, because of the free movement of people. There are legion problems that the treaty does not tackle; on the contrary, it will make them worse.

David Miliband: The hon. Gentleman makes a good case for getting on with reforming the EU's institutions. He also makes the case for tackling the genuine problems of delivery in the EU.

Michael Connarty: The Foreign Secretary has mentioned opt-ins on justice and home affairs. The three major issues are the opt-ins on justice and home affairs, the yellow and orange cards and the operation of the passerelle clauses, if the Government should ever move from veto to qualified majority voting. Will my right hon. Friend indicate the framework in which those arrangements will be discussed and determined by the Government in this House before he finishes his speech?

David Miliband: I will certainly address those three issues. The Government face a challenge, because in the end it is for Parliament to decide its own procedures. There is a balance to be struck between how much the Government want to dictate and how much Parliament should decide.

William Cash: Will the Foreign Secretary give way?

David Miliband: Let me make some progress. I shall be happy to return to the hon. Gentleman later.
	Let me start with the single market. Hon. Members on both sides of the House want to see an effective and open market. The right hon. Member for Richmond, Yorks has made much of the alleged deletion of the reference to undistorted competition from the list of EU activities. In doing so, he has ignored the new, binding protocol on competition, which confirms that the
	internal market...includes a system ensuring that competition is not distorted.
	He has ignored, too, all the other continuing treaty references to competition, including articles 4, 27, 34, 87 to 89, 96, 98, 105 and 137 in the EC treaty, and the fact that the treaty's powers on competition remain as strong as ever. He has also ignored the views of the Law Society, the head of the Commission legal service and other distinguished experts that the legal position remains unchanged. In the words of the Law Society:
	A Protocol records that the EU's internal market includes a system which ensures that competition is undistorted. This does not change the current legal position.
	The Opposition say that they want the single market to work better, and the Lisbon treaty will further that agenda. It will provide a new legal base for the creation of a single EU patent, so that UK companies can have one patent, rather than 27 separate ones, to protect their ideas and inventions across Europe. The treaty will enable the creation of a European research areaa single market in knowledge to make it easier for researchers to take their talents to other countries. The treaty will also allow easier recognition across Europe of professional qualifications, so that professionals can work more freely across borders.

William Cash: The Foreign Secretary just said that we need the treaty because it will enable us to make further reforms. At the same time, however, I am sure that he will acknowledge that we cannot achieve those reforms if, as my reasoned amendment, which has not been selected, points out, the Bill does not protect our Parliament's enactments from being struck down by the European Court of Justice and the UK courts. That is what inhibits reform.

David Miliband: I will come to that point directly, because it is important. A similar amendment tabled by the hon. Gentleman was selected last week. It challenged the basis of UK participation in the European Union since 1973, which is that on matters of European competence, European law should have primacy. To argue otherwise is to argue that we should be able to join a club, but not abide by the rules. I will show him in this debate that, contrary to the allegation that we have been led into a European project that no one ever warned about, there was absolute clarity all the way through the debates in the 1970s, from Geoffrey Rippon to Geoffrey Howe, whom I shall quote later, and other former hon. Members

William Cash: It is not surprising!

David Miliband: The hon. Gentleman may say that, but they were members of a Conservative Government articulating Conservative Government policy at the time, so the point does not redound to his benefit.

David Drew: Does the Foreign Secretary understand the unease felt by some Labour Members about the further threat of health services being liberalised? What additional protections are there to ensure that the very basis of the national health service will not be undermined by matters being referred to the ECJ?

David Miliband: I will address the division of competences across the EU, but I assure my hon. Friend not only that nothing in the treaty would allow interference in our national health service, but that it strengthens the UK's position in deciding on our health provision.

David Heathcoat-Amory: If the Foreign Secretary is so proud of the text, why did the Government table 295 amendments to an almost identical earlier text, of which only 33 were successful, most of which dealt with comparatively trivial matters? The answer to the question that the hon. Member for Stroud (Mr. Drew) raised is that the Government opposed interference in health matters at the time, albeit without success. Can the Foreign Secretary explain why he is now defending a text that he previously rejected?

David Miliband: We tabled amendments on justice and home affairs, for example, precisely to ensure that our rights to choose on justice and home affairs [Interruption.] There were not 295 amendments in respect of the health service. A lot of amendments were, rightly, tabled because it was important to secure our position. Let me take the justice and home affairs issue; in a way, it brings out better than any

David Drew: What about health?

David Miliband: I have answered the question on health. I assure my hon. Friend that this treaty text confirms a stronger UK position for deciding on our own health services than existed previously.
	The Opposition say that they want sensible co-operation on justice and home affairs issues and who could deny our need for that, given that the European arrest warrant brought the 21/7 bomber to justice? There is no doubt that when it comes to tackling terrorism and organised crime, EU action to improve the exchange of information can play an important role.
	Let us be clear about what the treaty chapter on justice and home affairs does. It will improve decision making because there is a move to qualified majority voting, and that will prevent one country from blocking an agreementas happened recently, for example, in respect of allowing member states to transfer foreign national prisoners back to their home member state. The treaty will help make progress in areas of benefit to the UKnot just by combating international crime and terrorism, nor just by ensuring greater legal certainty, but by ensuring that at every stage the United Kingdom is not forced to participate in anything that we do not want to participate in.
	Since 1999, we have opted into 42 immigration or asylum measures and 15 civil law measuresthe so-called pillar 1when that has been in our national interests. But we have not opted into 75 immigration or asylum measures and three civil law measures, because we decided that they were not in our interests. The treaty provides the flexibility to ensure that when something is not in our interests, we will be able to stand back. Measure by measure, we retain the right to choose. As the European Scrutiny Committee concluded, it was
	clear from the 'opt-in' arrangements that the United Kingdom is free to decide whether or not to take part...and to that extent is able to protect the distinctive features of the legal systems of the UK.

Malcolm Rifkind: rose

David Miliband: I am happy to give way on that point.

Malcolm Rifkind: The Foreign Secretary is entitled to say that in justice and home affairs, the Government can demonstrate flexibilityessentially, by working  la carte with Europe on that matter. Does he not draw the conclusion that that might be the basis on which, across a whole spectrum of EU policy, the United Kingdom could be comfortable in its EU membership in years to come, even if some member states wished to go much further towards integration?

David Miliband: I do not think that  la carte is the right approach when it comes to the single market, for example; I do not think that we can opt into some sectors and not others. However, if the right hon. and learned Gentleman is saying that there should be provision for enhanced co-operation in certain areas rather than others, as is being proposed in the treaty in respect of defence, that is sensible.

Rob Marris: Before my right hon. Friend moves off criminal matters, may I remind him of article 82, paragraph 2 of the consolidated texts? It refers to minimum rules on co-operation in the criminal justice system and goes on to say:
	Adoption of the minimum rules referred to in this paragraph shall not prevent Member States from maintaining or introducing a higher level of protection for individuals.
	Is that not precisely what we wantso that our citizens, who may encounter criminal justice systems in any of the other 26 member states, have some minimum protection?

David Miliband: I do not know how that article slipped my mind; my hon. Friend has made an important point.

Peter Lilley: Just now, the Foreign Secretary said that we had opted into 42 immigration and asylum measures, but had retained a choice. Will he confirm that when we have opted in, we do not retain a choice? We can never opt out; it is a one-way option with no chance of opting out in the light of experience.

David Miliband: Mr. Speaker, unless

Peter Lilley: Yes or no?

David Miliband: It is not as simple as that. The right hon. Gentleman is right in that if the measure was not changed we could not opt out. However, as soon as the measure was amended, we would have the right to look at whether we wanted to opt into it.
	On foreign policy, the Opposition have supported the Government's actions in the western Balkans. As we have seen in the Balkans, Lebanon and Chad, the EU can play a role in promoting security and stability in neighbouring countries. It is not an alternative to UK foreign policy, but a meansand an important onefor its implementation.
	As I said on 19 February, although the treaty will not change the fundamental nature of common foreign and security policy co-operation, it will enhance the efficiency, effectiveness and coherence of current arrangements. It will do so first by making the European Councilmade up of the member states of the EUresponsible for setting the EU's strategic priorities for all external action; secondly, by strengthening the coherence of the EU's external action through a high representative, appointed by and accountable to member states, who replaces the current high representative and the Commissioner for External Affairs; and, thirdly, by bringing together existing Commission and Council officials, together with member state secondees, into a single External Action Service. All of that will bring real benefits.
	On development, Europe is the world's biggest aid donor, providing more than 55 per cent. of total aid to more than 160 countries, and the Lisbon treaty will help ensure that, for the first time, that money is allocated in line with UK development policy. It makes it clear that EU development aid must have
	as its primary objective the reduction, and in the long term, the eradication of poverty.
	It will legally enshrine the principles of impartiality, non-discrimination and neutrality for the deployment of humanitarian aid. That will help ensure that humanitarian aid is delivered on the basis of need, not on the basis of politics or of geography.

Mike Gapes: Does my right hon. Friend believe that it would be particularly apposite if the House were to pass this Bill today, which is the 60th anniversary of the murder by defenestration of the democratic Czechoslovakian Prime Minister, Jan Masaryk, by the communist regime? Supporting the Bill today would be a symbol of the new Europe and the new European Union in which we are all united.

David Miliband: My hon. Friend draws an important link to the past. I did not know that, but I am very happy to agree that it would be apposite to act today as my hon. Friend suggests.

Hugh Bayley: rose

David Miliband: I will give way to my hon. Friend, but then I am going to make some progress.

Hugh Bayley: The Conservative party says that it supports the Government policy that aid should be targeted at poverty alleviation, and the treaty requires all 27 member states to follow that policy. If the Tories vote it down tonight, they will be voting against a policy that they tell the public that they support.

David Miliband: My hon. Friend makes exactly the right point. Conservative Members say that they want to will the ends of a constructive, engaged and forward-looking Europe, but at every opportunityat Amsterdam, at Nice and now with the Lisbon treatythey vote against it.

Graham Stuart: rose

David Miliband: I am going to make some progress.
	It is also worth explaining how the treaty will improve the accountability and transparency of EU business. A full-time Council president, appointed by the member states and answerable to them, will bring greater continuity and drive to delivering the agenda. Elected MEPs in the European Parliament have to approve EU legislation in more policy areas and, as was mentioned earlier, for the first time, national Parliaments get a direct say in making EU laws. If a majority of national Parliaments oppose a proposal and national Governments or MEPs agree, it falls.
	Again for the first time, the treaty defines the EU's competences, setting out where the EU can and cannot act and it underlines that the EU has only such competences as are expressly conferred on it by the member states through the treaties. Those are good things [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Beverley and Holderness (Mr. Stuart) says from a sedentary position that there is hardly any power left in the nation state, but I do not know where he has been in the past 10 years. Actually, on further reflection, I do know where he has beengoing through the Division Lobby voting against the things that the Government wanted to do.
	As I was saying, the measures I have described are good things and they are capped by the agreement at the last European Council that institutional reform would be put on ice for the foreseeable future. No wonder that 27 Governments and 26 Oppositions have united to say that the treaty represents a valuable step forward and, above all

Graham Stuart: Will the Foreign Secretary give way?

David Miliband: Well, I am in the middle of a sentence, so I would be grateful if the hon. Gentleman would at least let me finish it. The treaty represents a valuable step forward and, above all, a fair resting place for the institutional reform of the EU. The 26 Oppositions I mentioned excludes only onethe Conservative party opposite, stuck in the past and obsessed with myths about the EU.

Graham Stuart: The Foreign Secretary is speaking eloquently as usual, so can he explain why he has failed so spectacularly to convince the British people that pushing the treaty through the House is the appropriate way to move forward?

David Miliband: I think that it is at general elections that we convince the British people and Labour has a pretty good record on that [Interruption.]

Several hon. Members: rose

Mr. Speaker: Order. We must have calmness.

David Miliband: The Conservative party tried peddling its Europhobia at the 2001 general election, and we all know what happened then.

Mark Harper: Will the Foreign Secretary give way?

David Miliband: No, I want to make this point, because [ Interruption.]

Mr. Speaker: Order. Allow the Secretary of State to continue his speech. It does not appear that he is giving way.

David Miliband: I was coming to the obsession with the myths about the EU. Last week, we heard one that I thought had been buried for good. At Prime Minister's questions, the Leader of the Opposition, the right hon. Member for Witney (Mr. Cameron), announced that the treaty will bring in a united states of Europe. A united states of Europe means one country, one Government, one currency and every single country of the EU reduced to the status of a county council. Under no circumstances could that be a true description of the Lisbon treaty, which is why no one among the opponents of the treaty believes itnot even the Dutch Party for the Animals, with which the Conservative party is now allied on the issue.
	If the right hon. Member for Witney really believes that the treaty means a united states of Europe, he is honour bound to recommend that we leave the EU if the treaty is ratified. I hope that when the right hon. Member for Richmond, Yorks responds on behalf of the Opposition, he will either disown his leader's comment or say how he can foresee living in such an EU, because many Labour Members have doubts about what the Conservative party's real agenda is in respect of the EU.

Mark Harper: I am grateful to the Foreign Secretary for giving way. I want to take him back to the point that he made a few moments ago, because he cannot be allowed to get away with it. At the last election, the Labour party put the issue on one side by pledging a referendum on a European constitution. The public believe, rightly, that the constitution is pretty much the same as the treaty. They have rumbled the Foreign Secretary and he cannot pretend that he has a democratic mandate to push these measures through.

David Miliband: We will test the democratic mandate at the next general election and see what the result is.
	The right hon. Member for Richmond, Yorks claims that the new high representative
	will in time not merely supplement Members States' voices in foreign affairs, but replace them.
	That is the claim even though the European Scrutiny Committee has said that
	the largely intergovernmental nature of the CFSP and ESDP will be maintained, with no significant departures from the arrangements which currently apply.
	The hon. Member for Woodspring (Dr. Fox) claims that
	European integration threatens to tear the....NATO alliance apart,
	but that runs directly against what the US State Department and NATO's Secretary-General have said about the treaty. The NATO Secretary-General said that
	no one today would still seriously assert that NATO and the EU are rivals whose aim is to drive each other out of business.
	Clearly, he has not met the hon. Member for Woodspring.
	The hon. Member for Rutland and Melton (Alan Duncan) speaks on energy for the Conservative party. This is what he said:
	A gas dispute in Bavaria could ultimately lead to gas rationing in Birmingham.

Michael Connarty: Rubbish!

David Miliband: My hon. Friend says that that is rubbish, and he is absolutely right. The hon. Member for Rutland and Melton continued:
	If there is an interruption in the supplies from the Gulf, the Commission can override our contracts. It can cut off our supplies from Milford Haven and send them to Ingolstadt, or divert our liquefied natural gas from the Isle of Grain to Novo Mesto.[ Official Report, 30 January 2008; Vol. 471, c. 347.]
	It is embarrassing that a serious political party that aspires to government should come up with such claptrap.
	As for the issue of qualified majority voting, the right hon. Member for Richmond, Yorks has talked about our national veto being abolished in sixty areas, but he glosses over the fact that 16 of the 51 changes do not apply to the UK or apply only if we agree, while 15 are purely procedural. Furthermore, 20 changes will speed up or unblock decision making in areas not just where we want progress, but where the Conservative party says that it wants progress too.

Bernard Jenkin: Will the Foreign Secretary give way?

David Miliband: I am going to bring my remarks to a conclusion.
	This scaremongering from the Conservative party is not new. Listen to what was said in 2003:
	The critics of Maastricht...
	the hon. Member for Stone is a good example
	foretold the imminent death of British self-government. They are no doubt surprised....to find the Queen safe on her throne, British forces occupying Iraq because of a British decision, the Bank of England in charge of interest rates.
	Those words are not mine, but those of Lord Hurd.
	Although the argument of the Conservative party is not new, it is dangerous and deluded. The treaty means greater voting weight for the UK, a smaller Commission and additional powers for national Parliaments, yet the right hon. Member for Richmond, Yorks says that there is not a single thing in the treaty that he can bring himself support.
	It is one thing not to support our policies, but I cannot for the life of me understand why he is afraid of supporting policies that he says are his own. He says jobs, poverty and the environment should be prioritised by the EU, but he opposed the last two treaties that got us to this point, and he now opposes this treaty to take progress further.

Bernard Jenkin: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

David Miliband: No, I am going to conclude.

Bernard Jenkin: It is on defence.

David Miliband: No.
	The truth is that the Conservative party has drifted so far towards the fringes of the better off out brigade that the hon. Member for Stone can happily declare that they have achieved an increase in
	our sense of uniformity and unity on such central questions.[ Official Report, 26 February 2008; Vol. 472, c. 993.]
	Not half!

William Cash: indicated assent.

David Miliband: I am pleased to see the hon. Gentleman nod. He has moved from the fringes of his party to the centre. The truth did indeed come out last Wednesday when 37 Tory MPs

William Cash: Forty seven.

David Miliband: Excellent. So 47 Conservative MPs in other words, one quarter of the modern Conservative partysupported the hon. Gentleman in voting for an amendment that aimed to reverse 50 years of cross-party support for the EU. The amendment claimed to assert the right of Parliament over European law. In fact, it would have made a nonsense of the necessity for Community law to have the same effect in every member state if the UK, any more than any other member state, could choose by national law to override what it did not like. [Hon. Members: Ah!] Opposition Members can say Ah!, but those were the words of Sir Geoffrey Howe at the Committee stage of the Bill that legislated for Britain's entry into the EU. People cannot join a club and write their own rules.
	What was the position of the official Opposition last week? In the face of an amendment that would have endangered British jobs and British interests, after all the huffing and puffing about courage and convictions, and after all the attacks on the fence-sitting of the Liberal Democrats, they took the tough, principled and forward-looking decision to give Conservative Members a three-line Whip on an abstention that would have set back our national interests by 40 years. They talk about wanting to be constructive in Europe; in fact, they would wreck the national interest.
	The truth is that successive Governments have faced a choice: whether to retreat from the world or to engage with the problems and opportunities beyond our borders. It is this Government's view that we must continue to look outward and to try to shape the world, building alliances to tackle the global problems that we face. That is why we are committed to playing a full role in Europe, driving the European Union's agenda and making a positive difference to the British people. That is what this treaty is about. That is why I commend the Bill to the House.

William Hague: I begin on a note of agreement with the Foreign Secretary. Given that there are so many disagreements, it is a happy note on which to start. He paid many warm tributes to those of us who have taken part in the debates over the past couple of months. He was very generous to meif being called antediluvian is a form of generosity; I suppose in Parliament we are grateful for small compliments. Indeed, he has shown himself to be a vigorous debater throughout all our proceedings, and one of the brightest members of the Cabinet, as he is known to be, although in the current state of the Government that may not be such an extraordinary accolade.
	I certainly pay tribute to the Minister for Europe who, as the Foreign Secretary said, has always performed with great patience and humour, and will probably now become the portable lightning conductor for the Government and move from one Department to another. I also pay tribute to many Labour Members. The hon. Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk (Michael Connarty) has been quoted by all of us in almost every speech we have given. The hon. Member for Glasgow, South-West (Mr. Davidson) vied with me to persecute the Liberal Democrats and call for a referendum. The right hon. Member for Leicester, West (Ms Hewitt) spoke many times, only to meet in the final hours the tragic news that Peter Mandelson may be offered a second term.
	An extraordinary number84of my right hon. and hon. Friends have taken part in these proceedings. When one of them has spoken 210 timesit feels to those of us who often talk to him in the No Lobby like 310 timesthat is a considerable debating contribution. I join the Secretary of State in the camaraderie that has infused those of us who have participated in the debate. I thought that he was going to propose an annual reunion at one stage, but perhaps we will not go that far.
	The Opposition's case on the Bill's Third Reading is simple: its effect is to ratify a treaty that is overwhelmingly the same in its content as the rejected EU constitution. Its scrutiny by the House has not been as extensive or as detailed as it should have been, or indeed as was promised. Amendments supported by Members in all parts of the House that would have made improvements to the future scrutiny of changes to our relations with the European Union have been rejected. Above all, it continues to be the case that the Bill would come into force without ever being submitted for the consent of the British people in either a general election or a referendum. For all those reasons, we shall have no hesitation in voting against Third Reading tonight.
	We have, of course, had many exchanges across the Floor of the House about whether the Lisbon treaty, on which a referendum is being denied, is essentially the same as the EU constitution on which a referendum was promised in the House. Mr. Giscard d'Estaing has probably been quoted more often in this Parliament during the last couple of months than he has been in the French Parliament in the last couple of decades. His well-known view that
	all the earlier proposals will be in the new text, but will be hidden and disguised in some way
	is shared overwhelmingly by the Governments and institutions of the European Union other than our own.
	The resolution of the European Parliament on the matter welcomed
	the fact that the mandate safeguards the substance of the Constitutional treaty.
	The Slovenian Prime Minister, who currently holds the European Union presidency, said that in the new treaty, the EU was given
	content that is not essentially different from the constitutional treaty...All key institutional solutions remain...Some symbolic elements will be cleared up and some formulations toned down.
	That is the truth of the matter, but such disarming honesty and, indeed, enthusiasm for the similarity between the two documents has not extended to the British Government. They have maintained that the constitutional nature of the first document is not replicated in the second, despite the fact that the elements of the constitution identified by the current Lord Chancellor as fundamentally constitutional, such as the creation of an EU president and Foreign Minister, are present in the new treaty just as much as they were in the old one. This has been their case: that the first treaty was constitutional in nature and the second one is not, so there is no need for a referendum.

Bob Spink: Will my right hon. Friend give way on that point?

William Hague: On that point, yes.

Bob Spink: Does it concern my right hon. Friend that we are being asked to ratify a treaty whose full extent and powers we do not yet know? The powers and duties of the president, for instance, have not even been discussed so far.

William Hague: That is a good point, which has been raised during our debates. According to some of the documents leaked from the Slovenian presidency, many matters such as the precise demarcation of the roles of the EU president and the EU high representative have not been resolved. The stage is set for a turf war in the European Union.
	As I was saying, the Government's case has been that the first document was constitutional and the second was notor at least, that was the argument until the Foreign Secretary opined on the matter last Wednesday, when he made one or two statements on the subject that were rather revealing. He argued that manifesto promises were basically irrelevant to the question of a referendum. He argued that the decision on whether to hold a referendum should be made on the basis of the content of the treaty, irrespective of the manifesto commitments givenin contradistinction to my argument that it is not just the content of a treaty that counts, and that the overriding issue of principle is the manifesto promises that should be upheld whenever possible.
	The Foreign Secretary said that what he called the constitutional practice in this country was to hold a referendum when there was
	a fundamental shift in the balance of power.[ Official Report, 5 March 2008; Vol. 472, c. 1777.]
	To talk of constitutional practice when only one United Kingdom-wide referendum has ever been held is probably a little premature. When questioned on whether a referendum on the EU constitution was promised in 2004 because it represented a fundamental shift in the balance of power, the right hon. Gentleman said that that was not the reason. The reason a referendum was promised on that occasion, and therefore was in the Labour party's election manifesto, was apparently to clear the air on the European issue. So after all the talk of constitutional practice and the necessity for a declaration of the contents of the treaty to be decisive in determining whether a referendum was held, it turned out that in the Foreign Secretary's own view, the Government of whom he was part promised a referendum not because of any constitutional practice or any particular contents of the previous treaty, but because they wanted to clear the air.

Denis MacShane: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

William Hague: I will give way in due course.
	The constitutional doctrine now appears to be that a referendum is held when the Foreign Secretary and the Prime Ministerwho were both in the Government when a referendum was promisedwant to clear the air.
	The potential for holding referendums when there is a need to clear the air is probably limitless, given the number of issues at any one time on which the air needs to be cleared. Whether it be the closure of thousands of post offices at the hands of an incompetent Government or the release ahead of time of thousands of prisoners, which is even more incompetent, there are many issues on which people would love to clear the air. If a national ballot is to be held every time we need to clear the air, how about having a general election, so that we can clear out the Government as well?
	As the Foreign Secretary is perhaps the brightest member of the Cabinet, the confusion into which he entered by making this argument is a sure sign of the intellectual incoherence to which the Government have been reduced. The reason this is so revealing is that it confirms a truth that has been put to the Government several times during the course of our debates by my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Rushcliffe (Mr. Clarke), who is not present today. I have always respected his support for the treaty and opposition to a referendum, because he has always been so clear about that, even in general election campaigns. He has called on the Foreign Secretary to stop the nonsense of pretending that the two treaties are fundamentally different, and to admit that the early commitment to a referendum was entirely for short-term party motives, for which the term clear the air is the shorthand.
	For the truth is that the Foreign Secretary and the Prime Minister now believe that the former Prime Minister made a serious error in promising a referendum, and that that error has reduced them to arguing that something that is 90 per cent. the same is fundamentally different. The Government promised a referendum in 2004 because they were approaching a general election and the former Prime Minister thought he might even win a referendum, whereas today we are probably somewhat further from an election and the current Prime Minister thinks that winning a referendum is beyond him. That is the truth of the matter.

Several hon. Members: rose

William Hague: I shall give way first to the right hon. Member for Rotherham (Mr. MacShane) because he was the first to rise earlier.

Denis MacShane: If I am following the right hon. Gentleman's logic correctly, he is saying that the treaty that we are debating now is the same as the old constitution, and that a pledge was given to have a referendum on that constitution, which must be honoured. Is he therefore saying that if we pass into law tonight the treaty that he avers is the same as the old constitution, the position of his party will be to have a referendum on that? We need to know; the nation needs to know.

William Hague: The right hon. Gentleman says that the nation needs to know. I am saying that a referendum should be held on this treaty; that is the clear implication of everything I am saying. As I have frequently explained, quite a lot of water has to pass under the bridge before there will be any possibility of moving on to the question raised by the right hon. Gentleman, to whom I should also have paid tribute for his many interventions in these debates, including the most memorable one, when he said that the Prime Minister had been wrong about the weight of European regulationwhich means that we look forward to his interventions from the Back Benches for many years to come; we have all that to look forward to.
	I hope that the Foreign Secretary will spare us the lectures about constitutional practice. The promising of a referendum and then the refusal to give one are nothing to do with constitutional practice or Ministers weighing matters in the balance, but are everything to do with the sharp practice of Ministers focused solely on what they could or could not get away with. Thus they have found themselves not only denying a referendum when a commitment to hold one was given, but denying it for different reasons from those that they usually give in public. On any assessment of transparency and integrity in politics, their sequence of arguments has been about as low down the scale as it is possible to get.

Ian Taylor: My right hon. Friend is absolutely right to chide the Labour Government for the confusion they got themselves into, but does he accept that some Conservative Members have seen in both the constitution and the treaty positive benefits for the United Kingdom? Indeed, in many cases the treaty was rejected by the French because it was seen as too Anglo-Saxon. I also ask my right hon. Friend to accept my apologies for not staying through the whole debate, as I shall this evening be chairing a meeting of a vibrant but small body, the Conservative Group for Europe.

William Hague: As my hon. Friend and I have discussed these matters for a decade and more, he knows that I entirely respect his view on the merits of European political integration, although it is different from mine in many respects. I bracket him with my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Rushcliffe in never having said there should be a referendum, and in always having advocated the European constitution. That is a straightforward approachalthough I believe in many respects a wrong onewhich is in stark contrast with the approach of the Government Front Bench.

Several hon. Members: rose

William Hague: I shall give way first to my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr. Cash).

William Cash: I am particularly grateful to my right hon. Friend for fumigating the Government's speeches on the whole question of the treaty and the referendum. Does he accept the importance of stating, in line with my reasoned amendment, which was not selected, that we will defend and protect this Parliament's supremacy to ensure that we are not overridden by the European Court of Justice, or by our own courts, and that we have a sound constitutional position for any further renegotiations?

William Hague: Given the growth of the EU's powers, British sovereignty and the ultimate supremacy of Parliament need a constitutional safeguard, but I also say to my hon. Friend that the legal implications of any such provision must be absolutely clear. More work would need to be done in the future on the context and formula by which it is achieved, but I have great sympathy with the constitutional safeguard of ultimate supremacy.

Barry Sheerman: I clearly understand the difference between the right hon. Gentleman's view and that of the hon. Member for Esher and Walton (Mr. Taylor), but what is the difference between his view and that of the hon. Member for Stone (Mr. Cash)?

William Hague: My hon. Friend the Member for Stone could easily take the hon. Gentleman aside for several hours to explain the difference. That may be the best option. If he would like to meet my hon. Friend in the Tea Room afterwards, he would be happily occupied for the evening.

Ann Clwyd: As the right hon. Gentleman knows, I was a Member of the European Parliament for five years. One of the things that was apparent was that the Conservative group was profoundly uncomfortable with other nationalitiesindeed, some of its natural allies did not want to be its allies, because they considered it to be too extreme. When Peter Sutherland, the chairman of BP, was asked by the  Financial Times whether Britain wanted to be in or out, he said:
	Those demanding a vote on the EU reform treaty should have the courage to state where they truly wish to end up.
	Where does the right hon. Gentleman wish to end up?

William Hague: I wish to end up in the European Union but not with this treaty. That is why there should be, and should have been, a referendum. That is in no way an illogical position to take, because many of us have maintained for many years that we should be in the European Union but we should not increasingly be taken over by it. It is the majority view of the people of this country, and it gains additional authority as a result.

Edward Davey: rose

William Hague: I have not yet come to the Liberal Democrats. I shall do so later, but I give way to the hon. Gentleman now.

Edward Davey: The right hon. Gentleman seems to be extolling a new potential Conservative policy when, in response to the hon. Member for Stone, he talked about a new constitutional safeguard. Does he mean the possibility of using article 49A, which, as he knows, gives member states a right to secede from the Union, or does he have something else in mindpossibly something that he might wish to renegotiate with our colleagues if he were to pull out of this treaty?

William Hague: I mean none of those things. Only the Liberal Democrats have gone on about the article that allows a withdrawal from the European Union. It is one of the least likely treaty articles to be employed, which is why our consideration in these debates must be on the many other articles that will be employed. I am simply saying what I said a few moments ago: given the steady growth in the EU's powers, I can see the case for a constitutional safeguard. I would have thought that many Members across the House would also be able to see that.
	The Government have also been engaged in promoting as largely innocuous a treaty that was of sufficient concern to them for them to have opposed large parts of its content for some years. As I pointed out on Second Reading, they opposed the EU high representative chairing a meeting of Foreign Ministers; they also opposed the obligation to ask the high representative to speak for the EU at the UN Security Council when there is a common position. They
	opposed the creation of an EU diplomatic service and said that they could not agree to the self-amending nature of the treaty. They opposed the election of the President of the Commission by the European Parliament. They tried to prevent employment, public health, consumer protection and transport networks from becoming shared competences with the EU. They objected to the article on a common defence policy, and they opposed the collapsing of the third pillar on justice and home affairs, but they eventually settled for those and many other things that they had maintained were wrong or unacceptable.
	Many of the objections that right hon. and hon. Members have made to the treaty in these proceedings were objections that Ministers made themselves until recently, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Wells (Mr. Heathcoat-Amory) pointed out. Once again, the Government have not been straight with the country. They have taken to arguing that such things are now of little importance, but the truth is that they decided to give way on them rather than not have an agreement.
	What is worse is that the Government have also taken to arguing that certain concepts introduced in the treaty have been knocking around for a long time. The Foreign Secretary argued last Wednesday that
	the provisions on legal personality have been around since Maastricht, which was pioneered through the House by the Conservative party.[ Official Report, 5 March 2008; Vol. 472, c. 1778.]
	Again, the implication is that nothing much is going on. In fact, the Lisbon treaty's provisions on the EU's legal personality, which are identical to those of the EU constitution, are a major change to the current situation. Since Maastricht, the EC has had legal personality, but the EU has not, hence the three-pillar structure. That is why the proposal at Amsterdam to give the EU a single legal personality merited this remark from Tony Blair at the Dispatch Box:
	We have also ruled out other potentially damaging proposals. For example, others wanted to give the European Union explicit legal personality across all the pillars of the treaty. At our insistence, that was removed.[ Official Report, 18 June 1997; Vol. 296, c. 314.]
	If that was a potentially damaging change in the view of the then Prime Minister in 1997, it cannot now, in 2008, have been around since Maastricht. Part of the case against the Third Reading of the Bill is that a Government who have been through so many contortions, inversions of principle and twists of logic have emerged with a case in favour of the treaty so peppered with holes that they have shot themselves, and so accompanied by unsubstantiated assertions that the treaty should not be passed without the holding of the referendum that these Ministers promised.

James Clappison: My right hon. Friend mentioned the self-amending treaty. Does he think that it takes a bit of cheek for the Foreign Secretary to say that institutional change is not on the agenda for the foreseeable future, when the Government have signed up to a whole range of passerelle clauses that will make institutional change, which would at the moment need intergovernmental conferences, possible without such conferences and with little ado?

William Hague: My hon. Friend, who has played a frequent and excellent part in these debates, once again makes his point very well. He took part in the debate on the passerelleor ratchetclauses, about which I shall say more in a moment. They will open the door to further institutional change.

Rob Marris: rose

William Hague: I give way to the hon. Gentleman, who has also played a frequent part.

Rob Marris: What evidence can the right hon. Gentleman adduce that a better deal for the United Kingdom than that in the treaty would be possibleor would he prefer no deal?

William Hague: I believe that the Government should have put the case for their own vision of the future of Europe in the past two or three years, between the rejection of the constitution in 2005 and the agreement on the Lisbon treaty in 2007. Instead, they sat immobile, saying that the constitution was dead, that it was a parrot that had died and that no negotiations were taking place. They allowed the negotiations to happen to them, rather than influence the negotiations and put forward their own vision of the future. Tragically, the opportunity was missed.

Anne McIntosh: Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is curious that we were not allowed line-by-line analysis and scrutiny of the Bill, but that we spent a whole day on one line of it, on climate change?

Hon. Members: Six words.

William Hague: My hon. Friend makes a powerful point. The six words on climate change, which involved no new procedures and powers, were debated for several hours under the Government's procedural motion, which meant that some five minutes were spent on each letter. The 13 pages on justice and home affairs, however, had the same amount of time for debate, which worked out at 45 seconds per line.
	My hon. Friend brings me to the next part of my case against Third Reading. The line-by-line scrutiny that a Bill of this nature should receive and that the Government promised, partly as a response to the demand for a referendum, has not taken place in the way that the nation had every right to expect. The media were informed by the Government last autumn that 20 full days of debate would take place in this House, but today we come to the end of those debates after 14 days, compared with 29 days of debate on the treaty of Maastricht. The Bill has only eight clauses yet clause 4, on the increase of the powers of the European Parliament, was debated for less than 15 minutes and clause 5, on the amendment of the founding treaties, was not debated at all.
	The time restrictions imposed and the introduction of themed debates to which so many in the House objected has meant that of the 227 amendments selected for debate just under half were ever reached. As a result, amendments on asylum, borders, migration and visas, on judicial co-operation and civil matters, on freedom of establishment, free movement of workers, intellectual property, personal data and social policy, and on transport were never debated at all. In addition, the amendments on defence were never debated, even though the French Government clearly believe that the provisions included in the treaty paved the way for a major change in our defence arrangements.
	In his article in yesterday's  International Herald Tribune, the French Foreign Minister said that the French EU presidency, beginning on 1 July, would
	prepare the implementation of permanent structured cooperation.
	He said:
	The European Security and Defence Policy inscribed in the Lisbon Treaty is finally allowing...the EU...to fully assume its role on the international scene.
	There may be, in the minds of some hon. Members, a case for such a developmentthere is a case against such a developmentbut it is beyond argument that such changes are of enormous importance to the defence posture of this country and the performance and future of NATO. A Bill that permits such changes in the area of defence but on which there has been no detailed debate in the House of Commons concerning those provisions is not a Bill that should receive Third Reading.

Bernard Jenkin: The Government have repeatedly said that unanimity is the rule in matters of defence. However, a close reading of the provisions on defence shows that qualified majority voting figures again and again, particularly in the provisions on the European Defence Agency and the setting up and expulsion of members from the permanent structure of co-operation. Those arrangements are clearly designed to pressure member states into accepting a consensus that they might not otherwise accept, because it might not be in their interests.

William Hague: My hon. Friend makes a valid point. The importance of those issues should have merited substantial debate on the Floor of the House and defence should have merited a separate day of debate, which is what we argued when the procedural motion was tabled at the end of January. The procedure and timetable adopted by the Government for the examination of the Bill has militated against the detailed discussion of many of its most important provisions. I hope that that will be borne fully in mind when the Bill in debated in another place in the coming weeks.

Mark Hendrick: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

William Hague: Let me finish another point; otherwise nobody else will ever get into this debate.
	I hope, too, that Members of the upper House will examine particularly carefully those issues on which Members from all quarters of this House have expressed concern. The most outstanding example of that, on whichunlike all the other provisions of the Billthe hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr. Davey) and I saw eye to eye, is clause 6, which continues to provide for the wide-ranging abolition of further national vetoes, which was raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Hertsmere (Mr. Clappison). It even provides for moving the whole of foreign policy from unanimity to qualified majority voting in the future, without a further treaty and on the basis of approval of an affirmative motion in each House of Parliament. Intense concern about that matter has been reflected in our debates. The Minister for Europe will recall that not a single Member from any party spoke in support of his position except for him. The only Labour Member to speak spoke against the provisions.
	The process unites many of us who have different views about the treaty. I have already mentioned the Liberal Democrat Front-Bench teamor at least its remaining membersin that regard. We are completely at one in finding the procedure inadequate. Until now, changes to European treaties have been a matter for primary legislation. For future changes, which are the equivalent of major treaty changes, to be subject to anything less than primary legislation is another major reduction in the rights and role of our Parliament.

Mark Hendrick: The right hon. Gentleman has made it plain that he is unhappy about the way in which the treaty has been dealt with in the House, particularly the content. If in the dim and distant future there ever were another Conservative Government, with which party would he renegotiate the treaty?

William Hague: The hon. Gentleman has asked that question so often that by now he should know the answer by heart. I notice that even he does not feel able to support the Government on what I have just been describingthe scrutiny of changes with the ratchet clause and the passerelles. When Members from all parties feel that parliamentary scrutiny of Executive action should be intensified rather than relaxed, whichever party forms the Government of the day, there is much common cause to be made on changing that aspect of the Bill.

Geraldine Smith: Does the right hon. Gentleman not think that the British people have a right to know what his party would do about the treaty if the Conservatives ever came to government? He will not answer that question. If the treaty is so bad for Britainif it is so bleakwhat will he do about it? I happen to think that the right hon. Gentleman and not their current leader may be the next Tory Prime Minister.

William Hague: I can certainly rule out the last part of the hon. Lady's question, which was a most mischievous thing to come up withshe need never consider that possibility. The answer to the first part of her question is that people know from the vote on the referendum last week how the Conservative party approaches the matter: we are the only party leadership in the House who stayed true to what we stated in our last election manifesto. At the next general election, we will be true to what we state in our manifesto then.

Angus Robertson: rose

William Hague: I should of course have included the hon. Gentleman, although consideration can be given to what constitutes a major party in the House. However, so that he may correct me, I give way.

Angus Robertson: For the record, will the right hon. Gentleman concede that the first party in this House that called for a referendum on the constitution and the treaty was the Scottish National party?

William Hague: I honestly cannot remember who called for one first, but I shall happily bracket the hon. Gentleman with parties that have stood by the commitment they made to the voters during the last general election campaign.
	I said that I would have a friendly word of advice for the Liberal Democrats. On the subject of the proceedings to come in the upper House, I put it to them that it is not too late to learn lessons from the resignation of three senior members of their Front-Bench team and to honour the commitment to vote for a referendum that they and the rest of us made. The votes last Wednesday demonstrated that with their support the move for a referendum on the treaty could have been carried in the House. At the next general election, everything they say about a referendum will be against the backdrop of the fact that they could have brought about a referendum on this treaty had they so wished.
	As I have quoted the Liberal Democrat leader, the right hon. Member for Sheffield, Hallam (Mr. Clegg), in almost all my speeches on the Bill I do not want him to feel left out today. In his speech in Liverpool on Sunday, he said:
	No wonder people are tired of politics...let's give people the say they deserve.
	The contortions of two party leaderships about a referendum are exactly why people are tired of politics; the people should indeed be given the say they deserve. In his leadership acceptance speech on 18 December, the right hon. Gentleman said:
	We want to change politics.
	I congratulate him on doing so, because he has invented a new concept of collective responsibility, in which some people who vote against the party leadership have to resign while others can merrily stay put. Although three members of the Liberal Democrat Front-Bench team voted with us on a referendum and resigned, there are eight others who voted with us on a referendum whom the leader of the Liberal Democrats did not have the courage to sack. I can tell him that that is no way to run a Government, if that is something that has ever entered his head. We may be seeing not only a new version of collective responsibility, but a new form of extended abstention, in which a party abstains from voting on something to which it was committed, and its leader abstains from doing anything about colleagues whom he told to abstain but who did not do so. It is abstention as a way of life, but it is not exactly the change in politics that people had in mind. The result is that the Bill still lacks the requirement for a referendum that should so obviously be included in it.
	The withholding of a referendum is obviously opposed by those of us who oppose the treaty, but given that it was promised in a document so overwhelmingly similar, its absence damages our politics as a whole. We call for a referendum not just so that people can say no to the treaty, but so that they can have their sayyes or noon the many profound changes in it. Our debates have proved that the changes are fundamental to our relationship with the EU. To name but four of the changes, there is: the movement of criminal justice and policing from intergovernmental to supranational control; the end of the rotating presidency, shared between Europe's countries, and its replacement with a new EU president who is meant to drive forward the EU's agenda; the creation of the EU Foreign Minister in all but name, with the diplomatic service that the Government opposed; and the endowment of the charter of fundamental rights with full legal force. Those changes together represent a major shift of power from Europe's nation states to the EU's central institutions, and all are reproduced from the EU constitution.
	As for the pathetic fig leaf that the Government have cited so oftenthe idea that the constitutional concept has been abandonedwe all know that the European Scrutiny Committee was right on that point. I must quote it, as I say that we quote it in every debate. I quote not partially, but in full:
	Taken as a whole, the Reform Treaty produces a general framework which is substantially equivalent to the Constitutional Treaty.
	The Committee went on to say:
	Even with the 'opt-in' provisions on police and judicial cooperation in criminal matters, and the Protocol on the Charter, we are not convinced that the same conclusion does not apply to the position of the UK under the Reform Treaty.
	It continued:
	Accordingly, we do not consider that references to abandoning a 'constitutional concept'...are helpful and consider that they are even likely to be misleading in so far as they might suggest the Reform Treaty is of lesser significance than the Constitutional Treaty.
	The whole course of events was set out clearly in the German presidency's official report of 14 June last year, which stated:
	A certain number of Member States underlined the importance of avoiding the impression which might be given by the symbolism and the title 'Constitution' that the nature of the Union is undergoing radical change. For them this also implies a return to the traditional method of treaty change through an amending treaty, as well as a number of changes of terminology, not least the dropping of the title 'Constitution'.
	It said:
	Such an approach is not incompatible with the demand from those Member States which have already ratified, that as much of the substance of the Constitutional Treaty as possible should be preserved. They are ready to consider the alternative method of treaty change.
	So the strategy was clear: it was to change the name and title, but to keep the substance of the treaty. That is exactly what happened. The process was designed to bring back the constitution, disguised just enough for the Government to have a fighting chance of hoodwinking voters into thinking that the referendum promise could be forgotten.  [Interruption.] I must now try to close my remarks.
	The way in which the treaty is being rammed through without a referendum is as clear a breach of an election promise to voters as one could get, and the inescapable reality of the whole process is that the Government have no democratic mandate to sign up to the treaty. The plain fact of the matter is that the Government are attempting to make fundamental changes without letting the voters have any say at all, either in a general election or in a referendum.
	If the Government get their way, and next year the new EU president stands up and claims to speak for all Europe, this country included, voters may well ask, When did we give permission for this person to speak for us? and the Government's honest answer would have to be, Never. As the charter of fundamental rights becomes legally binding, and as the European Court of Justice begins to change EU laws in light of the charter, as it inevitably will in time, people will ask when they agreed that the document should have legal force, and Ministers will have to answer, We thought you should have no say on the matter. When Eurojust initiates some investigation, or the European Court of Justice, with its new full jurisdiction over criminal justice agreements, changes some part of our criminal justice system, or when the Government opt into an EU law on criminal proceedings and are then outvoted, people will ask when they were consulted about that. Those Members here who voted against a referendum will have to say, I voted to stop you having a say when that went through.
	If the treaty goes through, the EU will hold powers that the British people never gave it permission to hold. It will work by new methods that the British people never endorsed. If Ministers and Liberal Democrat leaders had as their real intent the undermining of the European Union's democratic legitimacy in this country, they could have chosen no better way. Despite the EU's many profound faults and follies, I believe that the EU has benefited Britain and the rest of Europe, and that is yet another powerful reason to oppose the Government's arrogant determination to ram the treaty through against the British people's wishes. They will in the long term find that they have been false friends to the European Union.
	Everything about the ratification of this repackaged constitution has been marked by cynicism and calculation. The voters who put us here already have a low opinion of this place, yet the Government have done everything they can to confirm it by treating people like fools. Why should they believe manifesto promises when those are so shamelessly ignored? How can they believe a Prime Minister who claims to want to listen to the people, when he does everything in his power to stop them having their voice heard? Why should voters trust politicians when politicians will not trust them?
	The treaty is not just damaging to our national interest. It will not only give the EU unwarranted power over our national life. It marks the point when the arrogance of power made a Government forget that nothing lasting can be built in a democracy without the people's consent.

Patricia Hewitt: I am delighted to support the Third Reading of this important Bill, particularly after participating in so many hours of debate on the Bill, which have proved so immensely instructive and in many ways so enjoyable.
	I start by adding my own tribute to my hon. Friend the Minister for Europe, who has been a consistently well informed and good natured companion through the highways and byways of the Lisbon treaty, in a debate that has also been marked by the intellectual weight and the vision of my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary.
	The debate has on so many occasions been enlivened by the great wit of the right hon. Member for Richmond, Yorks (Mr. Hague)a brilliant wit that sometimes disguises the vacuousness of his party's position on the central issue of our country's relationships with our partners in the European Union. We have also heard on many, many occasions the arguments, the fears and the conspiracy theories from Opposition Members who oppose more or less openly Britain's membership of the European Union, as do a few of my hon. Friends.
	Listening to those contributions over these many days, I was constantly reminded of why and when I became a pro-European.

Keith Vaz: I congratulate my right hon. Friend on the assiduous way in which she has participated in the debates. Does she agree that from the point of view of the Opposition, this has been a missed opportunity to talk about the future of Europe? All they are concerned about is the past, and being as negative as they can be about the European Union.

Patricia Hewitt: I entirely agree with my right hon. Friend, and that is a point that I shall elaborate on in a moment. What we have seen in the debate is a Conservative party that is increasingly talking to itself, not to the British people and certainly not to our partners in the European Union.

Graham Stuart: Will the right hon. Lady give way?

Patricia Hewitt: I shall give way shortly, but I want to take a few moments to recall, if I may, a little of my personal history and to revert briefly to the early 1970s. I had come from Australia as a student, as many hon. Members know, and had only recently made my home in this country. I was an enthusiastic young member of the Labour party, and I went, as enthusiastic members do, to the Labour party conference. In search of enlightenment, I went to the fringe meeting of the Labour Common Market safeguards committee, no lessand fringe indeed it was. I had the opportunity to listen to two gentlemen who were then Members of this HouseBryan Gould and the late Peter Shore. As an expatriate Australian, I had some sympathy with Bryan Gould's position. He was particularly worried about New Zealand butter, and distressed that the United Kingdom, by joining the Common Market, as it then was, would turn its back on the Commonwealth, with its system of Commonwealth trading preferences, and abandon the farmers of Australia and New Zealand. The more I listened to him and to Peter Shore, the more horrified I became by the chauvinism, protectionism and sheer little Englandism of it all, and I decided there and then that I would have no truck with that.

Mark Harper: How can the right hon. Lady say that wanting to have a good relationship and engage properly with the Commonwealthan organisation that encompasses a significant proportion of the human population, particularly in many of the poorer countriesis being xenophobic and not wanting to reach out to people in the world?

Patricia Hewitt: I think the hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that that is not what I was saying. Indeed, I have consistently argued that it is part of the unique position and weight that our country has in the world that we simultaneously are a leading member of the European Union, play a huge role within the British Commonwealth, and have an important and close relationship with the United States of America.

Jim Cunningham: Like my right hon. Friend, I remember that period. What Conservative Members are not telling us is that another alternative to the Commonwealth was being considered at that timethe Scandinavian dimension. Furthermore, what is being missed in all these debates is the fact that everybody knew, when they signed up to the treaty of Rome, that all things would flow from that. We cannot turn the clock back. If we should ever have had a referendum, it was on the single market, because everythingthe Bank and the whole lotflowed from that, and that is not being faced up to in these debates.

Patricia Hewitt: My hon. Friend is absolutely right.
	I want to make a further point about the Conservative party. In those days, when I was forming my own, very strongly pro-European views, the Conservatives were the party of Britain in Europe, and proud to be soled of course by Ted Heath, who negotiated Britain's entry into the Common Marketand the party that two decades later negotiated and agreed the Maastricht treaty and took that Bill through this House, with no referendum at all. We have heard many right hon. and hon. Members who have served in this House for far longer than I have say that these debates have often felt like a Groundhog Day-style re-run of the Maastricht debates nearly 16 years ago.

John Hayes: I am reluctant to interrupt this fascinating journey through the right hon. Lady's CV. Nevertheless, if she wants a straightforward debate on these matters, it would benefit the House if she would be straightforward about whether she sees the European Union as an intergovernmental organisation or supports the supranational elements in this treaty, which for many of us fly in the face of the intergovernmental approach that she says she admires, for example in the Commonwealth.

Patricia Hewitt: I strongly support the treaty, in all its aspects. I strongly support the European Union as an organisationI have argued this point beforein which Governments share sovereignty on issues where they believe that by pooling sovereignty we can do better together than we can do alone. The Union is quite different in its nature from the British Commonwealth, which has its own strengths but is a completely different kind of association. Although many of the arguments and, I suspect, the speeches that we have heard in the past few weeks are similarperhaps identicalto those that the House heard during the Maastricht debates, the hon. Gentleman confirms that the position of the Conservative party as a whole is very different from what it was 16 years ago.
	Let me remind the House of what the then Prime Minister, John Major, said in November 1992 about the European Communities (Amendment) Bill:
	The motion before us is about the treaty agreed at Maastricht, but the substance is about Britain's priorities in Europe, and the essential question there is quite simple: in this country, are we or are we not to play a central role in Europe's future development? I believe that the answer that this House gives to that question is fundamental to our future well-beingboth economic and political. I have no doubt about the answer to that question. The answer, in our own national self-interest, must be yeswe will play a central part in the future of the European Community.[ Official Report, 4 November 1992; Vol. 213, c. 284.]
	What a contrast with the views we have heardwith a few exceptionsfrom Conservative Front Benchers and Back Benchers.

Gerald Howarth: Does the right hon. Lady not accept that the reason the Conservative party has shifted its position is that the European Union has shifted its position? The British people have found out that the pooling of sovereignty to which she refers has proceeded to such an extent that we, the elected representatives of the people of this country, are no longer able to decide on a whole raft of issues on their behalf because powers have been progressively handed over to Brussels. That is why this party is changing. At least this party is standing up for the people of this country, which is more than she has ever done.

Patricia Hewitt: We have heard arguments along those lines from the hon. Gentleman and other hon. Members during these debates, and he refers to Brussels and to Europe as if they were a foreign occupying powersome alien force imposing its laws upon usinstead of an association of which we are willing and leading members. One reason I support the treaty, and wish that he did, is that far from advancing us inexorably to a united states of Europe or an imagined federalist superstate nightmare, it strengthens the role of member states, national Governments and, specifically, the voting power of the United Kingdom.

Rob Marris: Does my right hon. Friend agree that part of the difficulty with the position of many Conservative MPs is that they think power is a zero-sum game? They think that either we have got it, Brussels has got it, the UN has it, or the Commonwealth has it, rather than acknowledging the concept of leverage, through which on occasion, by sharing power, the United Kingdom increases our power.

Patricia Hewitt: My hon. Friend, who has been such an assiduous contributor to these debates, makes a point that is profound and important in this increasingly interdependent world.

David Chaytor: Pursuing the point about the Conservatives' reaction, does my right hon. Friend agree that there is almost a collective sense of denial in their party, given that a Conservative Government made the three key decisions that took Britain into the European Union, and strengthened our relationship with it? Are they not trying to conceal their responsibility for the very policies that they now oppose?

Patricia Hewitt: My hon. Friend is right and psychologists would doubtless have an interesting time analysing the reasons. His point is confirmed by the fact, that 16 years ago, the right hon. and learned Member for Rushcliffe (Mr. Clarke), the right hon. Member for Suffolk, Coastal (Mr. Gummer) and the hon. Member for Esher and Walton (Mr. Taylor), who have all spoken eloquently in our debates, were members of the Government who argued for Britain's place in Europe and for a treaty that deepened and strengthened our relationship in Europe. Today, they are part of the small handful of pro-Europeans left on the Conservative Benches. Indeed, as the hon. Member for Esher and Walton said, rather ruefully, during the speech from the Conservative Front Bench, they have been so depressed by what they have heard from their party that they have given up the ghost this afternoon.

Richard Shepherd: Treaties have a cumulative effect. During the debates on Maastricht, the Government of the time argued for a Europe des patries, which was emphasised by the pillar arrangement. That was then. We now face the collapse of the pillars and not a Europe des patries but a European Union. That is why the argument progresses and the essential flame of our concept of liberty will not be extinguished by all the Foreign Secretary's patronising.

Patricia Hewitt: The treaty does not extinguish the great British flame of liberty. With respect, we have heard that sort of nonsense from Eurosceptics since before the United Kingdom joined the Common Market. The hon. Gentleman and other Conservative Members should recall that, on the eve of Britain's entry into the Common Market, Ted Heath signed not a secret piece of paper but a public declaration that members of the Common Market intended to move progressively towards a deeper political and economic union.

David Burrowes: The right hon. Lady has given us the history of her journey to becoming a pro-European and taken us back to the 1970s. May we take her back to 1983? Did she share the platform of wanting to get out of Europe, which was no doubt then a manifesto commitment of the current Prime Minister?

Patricia Hewitt: I did indeed. I stood for the constituency that is now represented so ably by my right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester, East (Keith Vaz), and did so on the manifesto on which we all fought that election. I learned an enormous amount from the voters to whom I listened during the campaign. I learned that my right hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Gorton (Sir Gerald Kaufman) was correct to describe our manifesto as
	the longest suicide note in history.
	It was not a manifesto that any party that was serious about forming a Government should have written. The British people formed their judgment on us, and after that election I went to work for Neil Kinnock when he became leader of the Labour party and began the long march back to reconnecting us with the British people and enabling us to form a Government again.

Peter Lilley: Having revealed the way in which she turned her coat, will the right hon. Lady now show a little respect for some of us who were elected in 1983 in the belief that we should be part of the European Community, who retain that belief but do not want to hand over further powers, and who would like to regain some powers for this country? Will she show some respect for that position, even though I do not have much respect for her constant abandonment of pledgesshe has abandoned anotherthat she makes to the electors?

Patricia Hewitt: My difficulty with the right hon. Gentleman's position is that he and many Conservative Members persistently refuse to recognise that the treaty secures so many of the objectives that they claim to support. As was concluded by the senior expert group, of which Dame Pauline Neville-Jones, who I understand advises the right hon. Gentleman's Front-Bench team on national security, is a member, the Lisbon treaty strengthens the position of member states in a number of respects including the fact that the president of the European Council will serve more than six months, so that it is more than a rotating position.
	To make a further point, 16 years ago the hon. Member for Stone (Mr. Cash), with whom I have had so many happy exchanges in these debates and who has spoken so eloquently on the matter, was one of only 22 rebels on his party's Back BenchesI think that I am right in recalling that John Major had a rather less flattering name for him and the other rebels. Now, however, the hon. Gentleman is tabling amendments that are virtually identical to the amendment tabled by those on his Front Bench. The debate over the past three weeks has confirmed that the centre of gravity in the Conservative party has fundamentally moved against Britain's membership of the European Union.
	The Leader of the Opposition has promisedand not changed his promiseto take his MEPs out of the European People's party, isolating himself from centre-right Governments in the European Union and leaving his party with barely a single ally among the Governments or mainstream political parties of the enlarged Union. Indeed, Daniel Hannan, one of the Conservative MEPs, likened the European Parliament's presidenta German Christian Democratto Adolf Hitler, causing immense offence to conservative colleagues [ Interruption. ]

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. Perhaps we could now get back to the Third Reading of the Bill.

Patricia Hewitt: I am grateful to you, Madam Deputy Speaker.
	The point I am seeking to make is that the argument that we have heard throughout the debates in Committee, and which we have begun to hear from the Opposition in this debate, confirms a profound shift towards Euroscepticism and views that were regarded as minority and extremist views less than two decades ago. It is no wonder that Caroline Jackson, also a Conservative MEP, has described her party's position on Europe as
	a very nasty patch of poisonous fungus.

Angus MacNeil: The right hon. Lady has told us that she U-turned on her position of 25 years. Has she U-turned on her position of three years ago, and is she for or against a referendum now?

Patricia Hewitt: That issue was dealt with fully in our debate last week. Although I supported a referendum on the constitutional treaty, for all the reasons that have been given in the House and outside, I do not support a referendum on the treaty. Nor would I support for a moment the position that the Opposition have taken of threatening to renegotiate the treaty after it has been ratified by Parliament and by each of the 26 other members of the European Union. Rather like with the Labour party manifesto of 1983, that policy position simply could not be advanced by any party that was serious about forming a Government.

Mark Hendrick: Does not my right hon. Friend's point about the Conservatives leaving the EPP in 2009 show why the right hon. Member for Richmond, Yorks (Mr. Hague) could not say who they would negotiate with? There would be nobody to negotiate with, because the Conservatives have no friends in the European Union.

Patricia Hewitt: My hon. Friend is right. The right hon. Member for Richmond, Yorks, who speaks for the Conservative party on these matters, has completely refused to answer that point.

William Cash: In her perambulation through the U-turns of the Labour party, would the right hon. Lady be kind enough to remind us what happened in the referendum in 1975? I think she said that nobody in their right mind would go down the route of a referendum, but it was Harold Wilson's Government who introduced the Referendum Act 1975.

Patricia Hewitt: I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman is wrong; I did not say that. I said that I had supported a referendum on the constitution, but that, for all the reasons given both inside and outside the House, I do not support a referendum on this treaty. I believe that the hon. Gentleman recently said that the campaign in favour of a referendum, in which he was so prominent,
	failed to rouse anything more than a minor public interest in the impact that this treaty will have...The effective opposition to this treaty does not look good.
	If the hon. Gentleman did say that, he was certainly right. Despite his efforts and those of the rest of the Conservative party, including its Front Benchers, and despite the concerted day-in, day-out efforts of Telegraph Group newspapers and others, the number of signatories to the petition calling for a referendum on the treaty has been woefully lowconsiderably lower than the number on the petition for a referendum on the Maastricht treaty, in which the hon. Gentleman was also involved.

William Cash: We got more than 500,000 signatures on the petition for a Maastricht referendum. A great deal of the problem with this petition has been that these debates and the arguments have not been fully reported by the media, including the BBC [Interruption.] That is absolutely true. There has been a lot of talk in here, but very little of it has been reported outside.

Patricia Hewitt: That is a pretty desperate argument, given that for months on end Telegraph Group newspapers have misreported what has been going on in the European Union; that is also true of many other newspapers. I remind the hon. Gentleman of the fact that when  The Sun published pages of anti-European diatribe during last year's Labour party conference, its readership fell dramatically.

David Chaytor: Is not the real issue the fact that after 12 days of debate on the treaty, the official Opposition have not been able to explain how the reduction in the number of Commissioners, the changes to the rotating presidency or any other of the organisational changes are in any way constitutional issues more important than the decision to promote the single currency, establish the single market or join the European Union in the first place? That is why there are so few signatures on the petition; that is why the Conservative party has lost the argument.

Patricia Hewitt: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. As I listened to the concluding remarks of the right hon. Member for Richmond, Yorks, I felt that they were the comments of someone who knows that he has lost not only the vote in this House but the argument as well. The reality is that the British Conservative party is now more isolated and isolationist than it has ever been. That is not what the British people want.
	The majority who believe that membership of the European Union is good for Britain is even largersignificantly largerthan seven years ago. That is true among young people in particular. Three quarters of them support Britain's membership of the EU. They take our membership increasingly for granted, just as they take for granted all the benefits that flow from membershipparticularly the fact that, as European citizens, we can all travel, study, work, live or retire in any part of the European Union.
	As the Bill goes to another place, wethe majority of the House who so strongly support itcan look beyond the ratification of this treaty and look forward to a different kind of debate on Europe. I am thinking of a debate dominated not by questions of institutional reform, but by the real challenges that face our world. As we have heard so often in these debates, those can be tackled effectively only if we work with our partners in the EU.
	The challenges include climate change, international terrorism and international crime. They include our global competitiveness on the one hand and how we end global poverty on the other. The immense challenge is how different nations, tribes and faiths can live together safely and sustainably on our planet. Those are the issues that our constituents care about; they expect us to deal with themin this Parliament, internationally and through our membership of the European Union.

Barry Sheerman: Is my right hon. Friend aware of how many letters I, as Chairman of the Children, Schools and Families Committee, have received from leading members of major children's charities, saying that it is only our membership of the European Union and the changes in the Lisbon treaty that will enable them to fight child poverty across Europe?

Patricia Hewitt: My hon. Friend makes a very important point. Like him, I strongly welcome the specific reference to children's rights in the new treaty.
	Let me conclude by addressing my remarks specifically to my right hon. Friends on the Government Front Bench. I do not believeI say this in a spirit of self-criticismthat we have done enough as a Government over the past 10 years to make the case for Britain in Europe or to challenge the nonsense fed by so much of our press to the British people. I say that in a spirit of genuine self-criticism as someone who was one of the staunchest pro-European members of Tony Blair's Cabinet. With the ratification of this treaty, however, I believe that we have a great opportunity to open a new chapter in Britain's membership of the European Union, to explain more effectively to our constituents why we are tackling certain issues through the EU and to strengthen even further the relationships and friendships with our European partners within this Union, which have served us so well over the past 10 years and enabled us to shape so much of European policy in a way that is right not only for our country but for Europe as a whole.

Denis MacShane: rose

Patricia Hewitt: I give way to a very close friend and an excellent former Minister for Europe.

Denis MacShane: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend. Does she recall that in the closing part of Mrs. Thatcher's Government, when Britain was promoting a single market under the so-called Are EU Ready? campaign, 25 million of Government money was spent on information to put across a true message about Europe? Does she also recall that when she and I were in government, my budget was cut to 200,000 and that when I came to a distinguished Secretary of State for Trade and Industry and asked for a little more money to help, I was, alas, sent away empty handed?

Patricia Hewitt: I am afraid that my right hon. Friend is quite right about that, but he will also remember that I was working with him to champion the cause of Britain in Europe to most of our global business leaders and that I was seeking to prioritise my budget on science and innovation, which I know my right hon. Friend also supports.
	At this point, as we look to enactment of the Bill and as we become one of the first member states to ratify this important treaty, I believe that there is an opportunity for our Government. I have no doubt at all that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and his ministerial colleagues will seize that opportunity in a way that will do nothing but good for our country and for the European Union as a whole.

Edward Davey: I agree with much of the substance of what the right hon. Member for Leicester, West (Ms Hewitt) has said, but if she is practising for an interview in Brussels, she will need to spice up her style. I hope that I will not ruin her chances of becoming the UK's next EU Commissioner if I say that we would welcome her appointment, as we would welcome the by-election that followed it.
	Although many of us have complained about the amount of time in which to debate the Bill and the treaty, I was slightly concerned by the exchange between the Foreign Secretary and the right hon. Member for Richmond, Yorks (Mr. Hague), particularly when they mused on how wonderful these debates are and mentioned the idea of having an annual reunion. Irrespective of whether such a reunion should take place here or in Lisbon, I would not vote for it.
	The case for the Lisbon treaty becomes stronger and stronger the more one studies and debates the text. Despite the restrictions on time, it has become crystal clear during our debates that the treaty is sensible and modest, as the right hon. Member for Leicester, West has said. Perhaps most significantly, it contains many reforms of the EU that the critics of Europe have long called for.
	With the EU enlarging so successfullyall parties in the House have argued for that over timeit is time to reform how the institutions of the EU work, which is what the treaty does. Such reform does not involve a new, significant transfer of powers, as some have alleged. It simply involves making the existing arrangements work better, so that the EU is fit for purpose and can be ever more successful. That is what the anti-Europeans do not like. Nothing upsets the Europhobes more than the idea that some of the widely acknowledged problems of the EU might be tackled.

Angus MacNeil: If the hon. Gentleman is so sure of his case, why did he run from giving the people a referendum?

Edward Davey: I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman voted against our proposal to debate and vote on a referendum on Britain's membership of the EU. I bet he voted with the Tories and Labour to try to gag that debate.
	It is particularly interesting to compare comments on the Lisbon treaty with past criticisms of Europe. Take, for example, the Conservative amendment tabled for the Second Reading debate on the previous European treaty, the treaty of Nice. The Conservatives opposed that treaty because, according to their amendment,
	it fails to modernise the institutions and policies of the European Union to meet the requirements of a diverse, enlarged Union.[ Official Report, 4 July 2001; Vol. 371, c. 273.]
	Perhaps that is still some people's argument, but those who argue that should probably be carted off by the men in white coats. However, if another set of reforms would
	modernise the institutions and policies of the European Union,
	we have not heard about that alternative agenda.
	Throughout our debates, we have not had a positive alternative set of EU reforms from the Conservativesnot a single idea. Silence on an alternative Conservative approach and silence on whom the Conservatives might talk to elsewhere in Europe about ideas for EU reform, which they do not have. They are bereft of ideas and bereft of allies.

William Cash: rose

Edward Davey: I give way to the hon. Gentleman, because he has some ideas for reform.

William Cash: I make no apology for saying that I would prefer an association of nation states.
	Does the hon. Gentleman not accept that to achieve economic competitiveness of the kind that my right hon. Friend the Member for Witney (Mr. Cameron), the leader of the Conservative party, is putting forward, we will need to proceed along a line that ensures, through some form of renegotiation, that we get ourselves out of the mess that the Lisbon agenda is in at the moment?

Edward Davey: That is very interesting, as the Foreign Secretary is saying from a sedentary position. As we know from these debates, the hon. Member for Stone (Mr. Cash) is increasingly at the centre of the Conservative party. Perhaps it is now the Conservative party position to renegotiate. We have not heard about that, but, as the right hon. Member for Richmond, Yorks said of us, I am coming to him later.

Barry Sheerman: The hon. Gentleman has mentioned the men in white coats. Is it not the case that many people out there have been put off these debates because it is clear to those who observe proceedings in the ChamberI was able to attend the debates on only three daysthat the lunatics have taken over the asylum?

Edward Davey: I hope that I am not out of order in totally agreeing with the hon. Gentleman.
	What about the other criticisms of Europe? Are they dealt with by the Lisbon treaty? Let us look at the 1997 Conservative manifesto. It complained that Europe was doing too much and pledged to incorporate
	the principle of subsidiarity into the Treaty.
	That meant the treaty of Amsterdam. That treaty put the principle of subsidiarity into a protocol, but the treaty of Lisbon puts it into the text of the treaties. However, we have heard nothing about that from the Conservatives.
	For many years, my party and I have had a complaint about the EU on the common agricultural policy. There have been times when pro-Europeans such as me have despaired of the EU with respect to the CAP, but it is worth saying that the CAP of 2008 is far less damaging than the CAP of any previous period in the history of the European Community and the EU.
	Let us be clear that more reform is needed, but the process has been going in the right direction. I welcome the Lisbon treaty, because it provides a new dynamic for CAP reform, namely greater democratic accountability and scrutiny, and increases the powers of the European Parliament in its relations with the Council of Ministers over law-making and budget setting. Many more areas of legislation and budget setting will now use the co-decision process, including CAP. For Liberal Democrats such as me who have complained about CAP and, indeed, about Europe's democratic deficit for many years, the Lisbon treaty addresses that point with real reforms. Interestingly, Conservative Front Benchers are against extra democracy going to the European Parliament. How very telling!
	Let us take another past problem of the European Unionthe fact that the Council of Ministers has always met in secret. Liberal Democrats have led the calls for that to be reformed, and the Lisbon treaty marks a big step forward on that, too. For the first time, the Council will meet in public when a new law is debated and approved. Of course, more should be done to tackle secrecy in this House, in Westminster, in Whitehall and in Brussels, but that is a real victory in the Lisbon treaty, and it should be noted.
	There are many examples of similar improvements by which the anti-European foxes have been shot by the reformsI would say that they are being massacred by them. Perhaps that explains why the British Conservatives have turned their backs on 26 other Conservative parties across Europe and taken up with the Dutch Party for the Animals.

David Heathcoat-Amory: The hon. Gentleman says that the European Parliament is the democratic lever for Europe, and the European Parliament has got more powers in each successive treaty change. How, therefore, does he explain that in every single European Parliament election since 1979, the average turnout throughout Europe has fallen? People do not feel represented at European level. How does he explain that one?

Edward Davey: I share the concern about falling turnout, but let us be clear: turnout is falling not only in elections to the European Parliament, but in elections to this House and to many local authorities, too. We should all be concerned about that as democrats, but it does not undermine the role of the European Parliament as a democratic forum. I would have thought that the right hon. Gentleman supported that.

David Chaytor: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that it is profitable to look at the turnout in the municipal elections in France and in the general election in Spain, which were held on Sunday? The turnout on both occasions was significantly higher than the typical turnout in recent elections in the UK. Have we not got something to learn from the way in which other European countries encourage their electorates to participate in elections?

Edward Davey: I absolutely agree. Liberal Democrats believe that it is useful to talk to and work with colleagues in other countries, because they often have good ideas, whether on electionsproportional representation, for examplethe reform of education or health. Engaging with colleagues in Europe is a sensible thing to do for the people whom we come here to serve.
	Let me list some of the other key reforms in the Lisbon treaty. For the first time, member states will have the right to leave the EU. For the first time, national Parliaments have been given a mechanism to call a halt to EU legislation. For the first time, ordinary European citizens will be able to petition the Commission to propose a draft law. For the first time, we have a European treaty that creates mechanisms for handing back power from the EU to the member states. Genuine Eurosceptics should be praising the treaty, not burying it. The fact that they do not back the reforms that they used to call for reflects the reality that the vast majority of Eurosceptics are not genuinely sceptical but have a closed mind and are predetermined in their opposition to everything European.
	The Lisbon treaty is not simply about calling the bluff of the anti-Europeans and exposing the shallowness of their position, beneficial though that is. The treaty also has many practical benefits for Britain and for Europe, as various experienced UK politicians have said:
	It contains measures which are essential to the operation of our foreign policy if it is to be amplified by partnership in the kind of world in which we live.[ Official Report, House of Lords, 7 November 2007; Vol. 696, c. 60.]
	Those are the words of a distinguished former Foreign Secretary, Lord Howe. Other experienced Conservatives have discussed qualified majority voting, the issue that has so incensed some Conservative Members.
	As to the changes in voting rights, I hope people will realise that this amounts to an increase in the UK's share from 8.4 per cent. to 12.2 per cent. of the total vote. That is a matter of considerable significance and a wholly positive factor.
	That was said by the former Conservative Cabinet Minister Lord Brittan. According to another former Conservative Foreign Secretary,
	the facts that the charter of fundamental rights will not be justiciable and that we will not be bound by justice and home affairs matters unless we so wish, are important.
	Those are the words of the right hon. and learned Member for Kensington and Chelsea (Sir Malcolm Rifkind). There are many other benefits for Britain to which those experienced Conservatives could have drawn attention.

Peter Bone: This is probably the last speech that the hon. Gentleman will make during this marathon debate on Europe. I congratulate him on the consistency and powerful energy that he has displayed in supporting a centralised European superstate with closer integration, but does it not concern him a little that when it came to a Division the Liberal Democrat party was so hopelessly divided?

Edward Davey: I have been grateful to the hon. Gentleman throughout our debates, because he was one of the plucky six who voted against the Conservative line with us on 14 November and in favour of our proposal for an in-out referendum. However, his reading of the Lisbon treaty, which suggests that power is more centralised, is completely and utterly wrong. This is the first time that the principle of subsidiarity has appeared in the treaty wording.

David Heath: My hon. Friend is rightthe treaty makes important advances in terms of subsidiarity and the role of national Parliamentsbut does he share my dismay at the fact that there is still not the slightest clarity about how the process will be translated into British parliamentary practice, and about how the House will be given the safeguards that the treaty affords it?

Edward Davey: I agree, and I think it incumbent on the Government to spell out those safeguards, perhaps in the other place, and to work with other legislatures and Governments. That is the only way in which those powers can be given effect.
	I want to discuss the other benefits of the Lisbon treaty for Britain. They include Britain's increased ability to protect our children from sex offendersLisbon allows member states to share information about convicted paedophilesBritain's increased ability to tackle gun crime on our streets thanks to Lisbon's provision for closer co-operation in stopping gun trafficking and Britain's increased ability to counter drug trafficking and the exploitation of women by people traffickers thanks to other Lisbon provisions. Yet while experienced Conservatives welcome such measures, Conservative Front Benchers oppose them. They should be in no doubt that we will remind voters that the Conservatives voted against measures to catch sex offenders, to curb the illegal importation of drugs and guns and to tackle terrorism, which is how out of touch they have become with the modern world.

Mark Harper: Will the hon. Gentleman tell us what measures currently exist that prohibit European Governments from sharing information on convicted sex offenders?

Edward Davey: If the hon. Gentleman had read the treaty, he would know that some of the issues that I have described are currently dealt with through qualified majority voting, which means that one member state can prevent the adoption of sensible measures to tackle them. If he has not grasped that yet, he has not grasped a point that is fundamental to how the European Union works and some of the problems with which the treaty deals.
	What has really struck me during our debates has been the utter failure of the treaty's Conservative opponents to give any example of the transfer by the treaty of significant powers and competences from the United Kingdom to Brussels. Despite all the usual guff about the surrender of British sovereignty, concrete examples have come there none. There are examples that the Conservatives could have given, but they have not drawn our attention to them, because those examples do not really help their case.
	Although there are absolutely no new transfers of power to the EU whereby the EU would have exclusive competence, there are two areas of power transfer where there will be shared competence between member states and the EUenergy and space. It makes sense for EU member states to have the ability to work together closely on energy policy, given the need to liberalise energy markets, to protect energy supply and to work together on new technologies such as renewables. I cannot believe that the Conservatives want a UK-only space policy so badly that they would oppose joint EU working on space.

Peter Lilley: As the hon. Gentleman knows, the treaty gives the power to make energy policy under majority voting except in matters affecting conditions of exploitation, so it gives power to the EU on majority voting over the allocation of energy resources. Does he think that that is a good deal, given that we are the only country with energy resources to be allocated?

Edward Davey: That argument was completely destroyed in our debates in this House on energy, and the Foreign Secretary has dealt with it in his response, so the right hon. Gentleman is completely wrong.
	There are other areas where Lisbon allows the EU for the first time to provide support and co-ordination in respect of member states' own policies, but prevents the EU from leading. What areas will face that new EU onslaught, which will involve EU support for and co-operation with our own domestic policy? The answer is tourism and sport. That is what is so terrifying.

Paul Rowen: Is my hon. Friend aware that one of the additional provisions of the Lisbon treaty is that the EU institutions will become subject to the European convention on human rights? While Britain and many other member states are subject to that, the EU and its institutions are not, but under the Lisbon treaty they will be.

Edward Davey: My hon. Friend is right, and that is another example why the Lisbon treaty is a good thing. The EU institutions should be subject to control, checks and accountability. Interestingly, Conservative Members do not like that.
	To be fair to Conservative Members, however, the biggest misrepresentation of the Lisbon treaty has come from the misnamed Democracy Movementthe leaflet that it has been sending out contains so few facts that it should be entered for the Man Booker prize for fiction. The leaflet focuses on five areas in its attempt to alarm and mislead people. Its first charge is that Britain's voting strength will be cut by a third. As I have said, our voting share will increase by almost 50 per cent. The Democracy Movement also says that the control of Brussels is being extended over our criminal justice system. There is no mention of the UK opt-insour ability to veto any extension of joint working to tackle crime, if we so chooseand there is no mention that co-operation on criminal justice is restricted to cross-border issues, such as beating international organised crime and tackling the international trade in drugs, guns and people, which one would have thought supporters of the Democracy Movement would favour.

Denis MacShane: Will the hon. Gentleman confirm that all those words are in very small print, whereas the picture of myself is rather large and handsome? Many of my constituents in Rotherham have asked me how much it cost under the Commons communications allowance to distribute my picture all over my constituency.

Edward Davey: I have not been to Rotherham recently, but I would be happy to receive a copy of that leaflet and to comment on it. What I am commenting on now, however, is the fine detail.
	The third charge made by the Democracy Movement in the leaflet is that Lisbon creates a president and a Foreign Minister for the EU. As our debates have shown, that is also untrue. The proposal that the existing presidency of the European Council should change from a six-month rotation to a more permanent two-and-a-half year position means that such a president will not be created and that there will be no president of the EU who is akin to a US President. As for the lie that a Foreign Minister is being created, the fact that the EU has no foreign policy on anything unless and until 27 real Foreign Ministers from all member states unanimously agree shows what nonsense that charge is.
	The fourth myth is that the legal personality provision is a threat to sovereignty. Such a provision exists for the European Community and has done for years, just as it exists for many organisations, from golf clubs to the Universal Postal Union.
	The Democracy Movement's final argument to scare voters is on the so-called passerelle clauses and the provision for future treaty amendments. Once again, it does not mention the triple lock of the Council, the European Parliament and national Parliaments or the fact that under the proposals the UK can veto any proposed treaty amendment at any time. I, like the right hon. Member for Richmond, Yorks, think that we could have gone further, but the Democracy Movement did not mention the triple lock.

William Cash: On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I am sure that the Democracy Movement would be extremely glad to know that it is getting so much free publicity, but how can that matter possibly be applicable to this debate, particularly given that the stream of assertions being made does not relate to any political party? I am completely mystified as to what the hon. Gentleman thinks that he is up to.

Madam Deputy Speaker: The hon. Gentleman's comments are, in fact, a matter for debate.

Edward Davey: What ought to be most shocking for the Democracy Movement's supporters, who have supported a referendum on Britain's membership of the European Union in the past, is that its leaflet makes no mention of the Liberal Democrats' support for such a referendum and the fact that we have been opposed and gagged by the Conservative and Labour parties.
	Once we strip away the myths about the treaty and examine its real benefits, there is no other credible position to take tonight than to vote for it. Of course, the Conservatives will vote against it, as we have heard, but their position raises interesting questions about their future European policy. As the Foreign Secretary has asked, what will they do once the Lisbon treaty is ratified? That question could dominate the 2009 European elections, by which time the Lisbon treaty will have been ratified. I cannot imagine the UK Independence party missing a trick; UKIP will harry every Conservative European parliamentary candidate, probably armed with white handkerchiefs, accusing the Conservatives of surrender.
	The Conservatives' position on their future referendum policy is delphic. Let us remind ourselves of it. The line from the right hon. Members for Witney (Mr. Cameron) and for Richmond, Yorks is:
	We will not let matters rest.
	That is stirring stuff for an election fight with UKIP

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. I think that the hon. Gentleman really ought to be relating his remarksperhaps his concluding remarksto the Third Reading.

Edward Davey: I want to talk about what we will do following ratification and the process of this Bill. I am concerned for the Conservatives, because their position is not clear. It is important to examine that position.

Madam Deputy Speaker: As I have said, a number of hon. Members want to contribute to this debate, so perhaps the hon. Gentleman's remarks can be related rather more to the treaty and the Bill.

Edward Davey: I shall certainly relate my remarks to the Bill. I hope that the Conservatives will tell us what not letting matters rest actually means. The right hon. Member for Richmond, Yorks warned about the euro when he was their commander-in-chief before the 2001 election, but I cannot imagine his saying, Ten days to save matters from resting.

Rob Marris: I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman will, in a sense, invert his comments. In the unlikely event that the Conservatives get their way tonight, it would be the end of the Lisbon treaty. The United Kingdom and the other 26 member states would have no Lisbon treaty, and there would have to be either a renegotiation or the status quo ante. The Conservative party cannot provide any evidence to suggest that if we were to kybosh the Lisbon treaty tonight, we could get a better deal, yet it says that the status quo ante is unacceptable. Does he agree that that is a hollow position and that the House should not follow it tonight?

Edward Davey: I agree absolutely. We have had debates about a referendum, but let us imagine what would happen if the country were to vote no in a referendum. What would a fantasy Conservative Government do in that situation? They would doubtless sit down with parties that think like they doSinn Fein, the Dutch Party for the Animals and the Italian Northern Leagueto hammer out an alternative vision and put it to European Governments. They would then try to work out whether they could hammer out a renegotiated settlement, but other Ministers and Governments in Europe would look on that approach with disdain. A policy of renegotiation would unsettle British business, the City and investment, and it would make a future Conservative Government a laughing stock not only in Europe's capitals, but in Washington, Moscow, Tokyo and Beijing.
	What is the real meaning of not let matters rest. I believe it to mean that the Conservatives will let matters rest, keep quiet and hope that no one has noticed. That is almost certainly what they will do. I confidently predict that after this Bill goes through the House, the Conservatives will abandon their commitment to a treaty referendum as soon as they think it safe to do so, just as they did over the Amsterdam and Nice treatiesso much for their principles and pledges.
	The truth on Europe is that there are three Conservative partiesthe party of the right hon. and learned Member for Rushcliffe (Mr. Clarke), the party of the hon. Member for Stone and somewhere keeping their heads down the massed ranks of the party of the right hon. Member for Witney. The policy of not letting matters rest is about the only thing on which they agree.
	The Liberal Democrats will not let matters rest, but, unlike the Conservatives, we have moved on and have a clear future policy, which is to give the people a vote on whether Britain should remain in the EU based on the treaties, including the Lisbon treaty.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. May I remind the hon. Gentleman that on Third Reading we are debating what is in the Bill?

Edward Davey: You will be pleased to learn that I am about to finish, Madam Deputy Speaker.  [Interruption.] I am not surprised that Conservative Members are glad that I am about to finish, because we have been giving them as good as we get. Liberal Democrats believe that the European Union has been, is and will be of huge benefit to this country and to our world. In voting for the Bill tonight, we are ready to take on all comers in the cause of defending Britain's national interestbeing in Europe.

Keith Vaz: It is always a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr. Davey). I could say that I agreed with everything he said and just sit down, but I have been waiting to participate in these debates for some time and I am pleased to be able to contribute on Third Reading.
	I want to begin by paying tribute to the Foreign Secretary and the Minister for Europe for their work over the past three weeks. I served in the latter post in the early part of the Administration, so I know how difficult it is to ensure that enough time is available to do the serious job that my hon. Friend must do of going to Europe to build up relationships with our partners in the EU and beyond. The last three weeks must have played havoc with his diary, but he has been here, he has been assiduous and he has answered all the points that have been raised. We all ought to thank him for what he has done.
	We should also thank the Foreign Secretary, who has been placed in a similar position. He has just left the Chamber to talk to the shadow Foreign Secretary, but he, too, has been present during these debates. When the House thinks of the huge number of current international issues that are important to our interests, my right hon. Friend's participation in these debates over the past three weeks has been extremely welcome. I thank both Ministers for what they have done.
	The shadow Foreign Secretary has just left the Chamber, but the Liberal Democrats' shadow Foreign Secretary raised a number of points about Conservative party policy. I have to say that, a few months ago, I was very much in favour of having a referendum on whether we should be in or out of Europe. I went on record as saying so last summer. I was in favour of an all-singing, all-dancing referendum on our membership of the European Union because I was fed up with the drip, drip of Euroscepticism. I felt that it was the only way in which we could properly explore the issue of being in the European Union. Then I met and spoke to the Foreign Secretary, who convinced me that [Laughter.] It was not in a darkened corner, it was a proper discussion. I was concerned and felt that we as a Government were in danger of losing our moral high ground on European issues. I felt that the only way to re-energise us was to have an all-singing, all-dancing referendum.

William Cash: rose

Keith Vaz: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman would have taken part.

William Cash: Will the right hon. Gentleman reflect on the fact that he played a good part in the European reform forum discussions, and is on record as having said that the EU needs reform? There was enormous agreement on the basic principles among those on all sides of that debate. Will he be a little more careful about what he says about Euroscepticism? We are not anti-European, we are actually pro-European.

Keith Vaz: I am delighted to hear that the hon. Gentleman, whose beliefs on Europe are sincere, is so much in favour of the reform of the EU, because that is precisely what the Lisbon treaty will do. It will help the reform process in a most important way.
	I was convinced by the Foreign Secretary, who said that a much better course of action than having a referendum was to be able to come to the Floor of the House day after day and debate the crucial matters that will affect the future of Europe and of this country. Having listened to the debates in the past three weeks, I must say that he was absolutely right. I know what would have happened in a referendum campaign: it would have been totally hijacked, not just by those who do not support the basis of our membership of the EU but by the Eurosceptic media, which would have destroyed the nature of the referendum campaign.
	I am glad that I was convinced by the Foreign Secretary and that we have had three splendid weeks to discuss the relevant issues. Where else would I have heard the early life history of my right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester, West (Ms Hewitt), a woman whom I have known for 25 years? There have been times when I have thought that she was genetically modified, because she has been such a perfect Minister and Member of Parliament. Then I heard about her previous life and found that she is just as human as the rest of us. It was great to hear about her early career. She, too, has been assiduous in these debates. In response to a couple of Opposition Members, if she is to be our next European Commissioner, I say hooray for that. She would be an absolutely perfect person for the job, although she would be missed greatly in Leicester, West, and of course there is no vacancy.

Patricia Hewitt: Does my right hon. Friend agree that over the years, we have learned not to believe most of what we read in the British press?

Keith Vaz: Absolutely. My right hon. Friend and I both know that to be the case. I am pleased that there is no vacancy, that she is still here and that we will meet each other on Friday when we go back to Leicester.
	Why is the Lisbon treaty important? It is because we cannot have the rules and regulations for a Europe of 15 for a Europe of 27. That is absolutely impossible. The hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton is right that Opposition Members call for referendums on every treaty. It is their mantra. They wanted a referendum on Nice, even though that would have blocked the enlargement of the EU, which has been essential to the success of the European project.

Stewart Jackson: I am sorry to break up the right hon. Gentleman's love-in with his constituency neighbour, the right hon. Member for Leicester, West (Ms Hewitt). I am sure that he would not want the House to infer from his comments that when he told the voters of Leicester, East, in May 2005 that a referendum was very important to decide our European destiny, they were intelligent enough to understand the issues involved, but that two and a half years on, they are too stupid and would be too influenced by the wicked print and broadcast media, and that he is therefore reneging on the solemn promise that he made to his electors in May 2005.

Keith Vaz: I did not say that to the electors. What was proposed then was a referendum on the constitution. What the House is discussing is not a constitution but a treaty, and it contains the very reforms that the hon. Member for Stone (Mr. Cash) correctly said that I spoke about when I addressed his forum as Minister for Europe. It is essential that a dynamic institution such as the EU should develop. Its enlargement means that there must be changes to how it operates, to make it more efficient and effective. That is why we have the treaty.

Mark Harper: Given the Foreign Secretary's clearly masterful powers of persuasionwe know that it is difficult to persuade the right hon. Gentleman to change coursewhy does he think the Foreign Secretary has not been able to persuade the British public that the constitution and the Lisbon treaty are different? About 90 per cent. of them think that they are broadly the same.

Keith Vaz: That is an important point. The Foreign Secretary has probably not been able to convince the tabloids that there is a difference between the constitution and the treaty, but I think that he has convinced the British people. The problem that we have in the debate about Europe is the tabloids. The  Daily Mail,  The Sun and the other tabloid newspapers, apart from the  Daily Mirror, are absolutely against anything European. It is therefore vital that we have a debate with the British people, as we have been able to.

Angus MacNeil: Maybe the right hon. Gentleman gives too much credence to the power of the tabloids. He should think back to May 2007 when, without the support of any newspaper, the Scottish National party won the election in Scotland.

Keith Vaz: That is very helpful. I hope that, if there is a debate, we will have the support of the SNP's spin doctors. Perhaps they will be able to assist. For the time being, we have a treaty that will make a real difference to how the EU operates. I shall give two examples of that, the first of which relates to justice and home affairs.
	I had the privilege of being at the initial Tampere negotiations, which took place in Finland under the Finnish presidency in 1999. When we began the Tampere process, which became the Hague 2 process, we decided that the only way that we could combat major crime problems such as serious organised crime and human trafficking was to co-operate with our European partners. That co-operation is essential. Without co-operation through organisations such as Europol and Eurojust, we will never be able to deal with the people who perpetrate organised crime or with the real problems of immigration.
	The British people are worried not about legal immigration but about illegal immigration. Like other right hon. and hon. Members, I have seen pictures and read stories about how people are exploited by those who bring them in gangs from places such as Moldova. I recently saw a DVD about someone who was brought here from the Punjab and told that they would have a better life in the UK. They were brought from the Punjab to Bucharest, then to Moldova, Moscow, Albania and Amsterdam, and then to the UK. The only way that we can combat the illegal movement of people is through co-operation with our European partners.

Peter Lilley: rose

Keith Vaz: Surely the right hon. Gentleman is not against that.

Peter Lilley: The right hon. Gentleman is making a cogent and coherent argument; such arguments have been rare from the Labour Benches. Does he accept that although it is always difficult to stop illegal immigration, it is less difficult for an island? The treaty says that we cannot have any internal border controls or any controls on movement through our ports and airports, and that we have to rely instead on the much more porous borders at the other edge of Europe. Does that not make it more difficult, rather than easier, to control illegal immigration?

Keith Vaz: I am not sure that that is actually what the treaty says. However, if people are determined to travel all the way from Amritsar to Amersham via all those other countries, we need the co-operation of our European partners in order to prevent that from happening. It is no good for us to feel that because we are an island we should let the rest of Europe get on and do what they are doing. We need the co-operation of the French in particular if we are to stop illegal immigration. That is why the treaty is so important and why it is so important that we should look at the mechanisms through which the EU operates.
	I agree with right hon. and hon. Members from both sides of the House when they say that it is really important that Europe can grow up with its populationits population has been running ahead of it. People are concerned about the way in which some aspects of the bureaucracy in Brussels operate. Anyone who has served as a Minister, whether they were a Conservative Minister or a Labour Minister, will know how difficult it is sometimes to deal with that. The treaty seeks to give more power to those countries that can co-operate, for example on QMV. Maastricht extended QMV. If hon. Members look at the figures on the application of QMV, they will find that when it is used in the European Council, the UK is on the winning side 90 per cent. of the time. That means that the rest of Europe is following our agenda.
	When Labour first came into power in 1997, we were on the fringes of Europe. Because of the actions of this Government over the past 10 years, we lead the agenda in Europe. People listen to and have enormous respect for what the British Government say when they speak at European Council meetings. If we reject the treaty, we will throw that respect and influence away, and that would be totally wrong.

Angus MacNeil: I hear what the right hon. Gentleman is saying about respect and leadership, but is he seriously telling us that since we went into Iraq five years ago respect in the EU for the UK has been enhanced?

Keith Vaz: Absolutely. In 1997, this country was on the fringes of Europe. We were not even consulted on issues. We were put on the sidelines because of the strong relationship between France and Germany. It is simply not possible in a Europe of 27 for France and Germany to run the EU. Many of the countries that have come in, such as Poland, Romania, and Bulgariaall the eastern and central European countrieslook to the UK as their champion. We are the champion of enlargement and we led the enlargement process.

James Clappison: The right hon. Gentleman is making a sincere and well-argued speech. However, is not the credibility of what he says shot down on both countson the transparency of the EU and on the Franco-German relationshipby the way in which the treaty came into being? It was railroaded through by the German presidency and all the other countries were kept in the dark, allegedly until 48 hours before the convening of the intergovernmental conference?

Keith Vaz: I have huge respect for the hon. Gentleman as a fellow member of the Select Committee on Home Affairs. I know that he thinks very carefully about these issues. We cannot sit on the sidelines. We have to influence what is happening. We cannot allow this huge, monolithic body, which has 27 members and affects 500 million people, to be run by rules and regulations that were invented 30 years ago. The whole thing would grind to a halt. Enlargement has meant that we need the treaty.
	As for the charter of fundamental rights, let me tell Opposition Members that it was negotiated for our country by Lord Goldsmith. At the start of the negotiations, he was on his own, but by the end of the negotiations, he had convinced all the other European countries that the agenda proposed by the UK was the one that needed to be followed. As we all know, the charter does not extend the laws of this country one iota. What is the fear about having such a statement of the values to which we as members of the European Community need to subscribe?
	Europe is changing. An example of that is the Lisbon agenda, which was mentioned by the hon. Member for Stonealthough it might have been a slip of the tongue. The Lisbon agenda was supported, I think, by Members on both sides of the House. In 2000, for the first time, economic progress and the operation of the single European market was benchmarked

William Cash: It was a failure.

Keith Vaz: It was not a failure. It set benchmarks for the first time, so the Eurocrats do not just make decisions and hope that everything will work. For the first time, sovereign states came together, sat in the European Council and said that they would benchmark their achievements. We have done extremely well as far as the Lisbon agenda is concerned. Of course, we have had a mid-term report. When it has been 10 years since Lisbon was agreed, which it will be in only two years' time, we will see whether we have reached those benchmarks that were set out.
	I am confident about the treaty. I believe that it was the right thing for the Government to do and I congratulate them on the way in which they have progressed. Let me end with a point that was made by the hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton and my dear friend, the right hon. Member for Leicester, West. It is not sufficient for the Government merely to say that they are in favour of the EU and that they are campaigning on all the great aspects of the treaty. They have to go out and make the case; otherwise, it is left to the editor of  The Sungreat person though she isand the editor of the  Daily Mail to run the agenda for Europe. That would be wrong. We have tried this in various ways in the past. I know that the Minister for Europe has been very busy at the Dispatch Box, but when he finishes his tour of duty in putting the Bill through Parliament, I hope that he will have the time to go to the towns and cities of this country to explain the benefits of being in the EU. The Government are committed to explaining not only the concept but our practical relationship and the real benefits that we enjoy.
	Millions of British citizens go to mainland Europe every single year. To say suddenly that they should not do that because Europe is bad is the wrong approach. I do not know why Opposition Members do not join us in our crusade to go out to the British people and to talk positively and constructively about the benefits. Even Opposition Members must understand that there have been benefits from our joining the EU. Surely one of them must understand; surely they must feel that at least one thing has benefited the British people. Perhaps that one thing is the 3 million jobs that have been created, the fact that we have peace and security in Europe, or the fact that we can co-operate on a range of issues to tackle the justice and home affairs agenda. Those are just three examples; I can think of hundreds more.
	In the quiet of the night, after hon. Members have gone home and realised that all their posturing has not stopped the Bill from going through the House of Commons, they will realise how much the EU has benefited Britain. I am happy to have spoken in this debate, and I hope that the Bill will be carried with a huge majority tonight.

William Cash: I am glad to follow the right hon. Member for Leicester, East (Keith Vaz), because for many years he and I have carried on conversation, dialogue and argument on this subject. As I pointed out in an intervention, he took part in the European forum, which we set up, chaired by Lord Waddington. The right hon. Member for Leicester, East gave evidence to us, as did the right hon. Member for Rotherham (Mr. MacShane) and Will Hutton. People from all sides of the political debate discussed as objectively as possible the question of where we were going on Europe. The proceedings were published and have been acknowledged as a significant contribution to trying to find common ground on the direction of European reform. The problem is this treaty.
	The treaty is the product not of the people who came to the European reform forum but of people in the unelected enclaves of the European Commissionthe people who are not listening. They are not listening to the vote in France and Holland or to the people in this country. They are breaking promises. They have produced a treaty deliberately written, we are told, by a leader so that it is unreadable.
	The treaty is not merely unreadable, it is undecipherable, which is where the problem lies for those of us who are not intimately connected with this matter. I pay tribute again to the hon. Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk (Michael Connarty), the excellent Chairman of our European Scrutiny Committee. Anybody who has tried to read the dense material in the treaty should ask themselves whether the man in the streetgiven the impact of the document on his daily lifecould possibly be expected to understand what it is all about. Passerelles, subsidiarity, constitutional concepts: it is unbelievable that such a document should be the ruling document of the people of this country for the indefinite future.
	Let us compare the treaty to the simple language of the American constitution. In far less space and with far fewer wordsfar less verbiageit encapsulates ideas that have managed to carry that country from the day the constitution was signed. There have been some amendments, but not to the integral part of the constitution. In this country, we have had to revise treaties from time to time. Over the last 200 or 300 years, we have produced some immensely important treaties, and because we do not believe that they have to be set in concreteindeed, we believe that they must not bewe have mechanisms in our constitutional arrangements for changing them.
	In effect, the treaty encapsulated in the Bill and under the European Communities Act 1972 is set in concrete. It is meant to be in concrete, with the acquis communautaire and all those lawsthe enormous tsunami invading our legal system and the principles of our constitutional Government and of the House of Commonswhich superimpose on our system a Court of Justice with no right of appeal. Setting all those rules in concrete with no real renegotiation process is, in essence, undemocratic.

Denis MacShane: From the hon. Gentleman's Jesuit education he will recall the tag, Pacta sunt servandatreaties must be obeyed. I can give him one example of a treaty which, thank goodness, we have never sought to renegotiate, or allowed any other signatory to renegotiatethe treaty of Utrecht, which gives us sovereignty over Gibraltar. The hon. Gentleman should be careful; treaties need every signatory either to quit the treaty fully or to agree renegotiation. Treaties cannot be renegotiated unilaterally.

William Cash: I am sorry to disappoint the right hon. Gentleman, because I am not about to give a dissertation on the Vienna convention. We have been obliged to abrogate hosts of treaties by force of circumstance. If a treaty is turned into a legal entityan entity incapable of being reversed, according to the assertions of the Court of Justice, which is given the right of overall jurisdictionwe are caught and trapped in the past.

Denis MacShane: rose

William Cash: I cannot give way to the right hon. Gentleman again, as other people want to speak.
	The point is that treaties have to be reversed from time to time, in whole or in part. The decision of Lord Denning, in McCarthy  v. Smith, followed by Lord Diplock in Garland  v. British Rail Engineering Ltd, clearly states the British Parliament's continuing right: it is unassailable constitutional law. With respect to the European Communities Act 1972 and the European treaty that is part of the treaty of Lisbonthe treaty of Rome and following treaties are all amalgamated with consolidation and amendments in the treaty of Lisbonthe British Parliament has the continuing right to override those provisions in whole or in part. The crucial words are
	or any provision in it,
	meaning the treaty. As and when we decide that we want to renegotiate we have an unassailable right to do so as a matter of constitutional law and the case law that is at the very apex of our judicial system.
	It is essential for us to understand that point, which is why my new clause 9, supported by 47 Members, and the reasoned amendment that I tabled for today, supported by a new set of Members, are so important. I was glad to hear my right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond, Yorks (Mr. Hague) say, in response to my intervention, that we needed a constitutional safeguard. I shall not go through all the arguments we made the other day, but it is imperative that we come up with clear, legally watertight wording that reflects those decisions, or we shall be unable to renegotiate, although we know we mustfor example, on over-regulation. By Commissioner Verheugen's own admission, over-regulation costs European economies 100 billion a yearmany billions to the British economy. We shall have to renegotiate the provisions, so we need a sound constitutional basis in our domestic law to enable us, where negotiations fail or falter, to tell other member states that we have reserved our position. The House should be in a position to tell other member states that we will renegotiate because we have retained the right to do so.
	Without going through all the arguments again, I say only that the consequence of acceptance of the treaty is that the European Court of Justice and our courts will be determined to apply case law, because that is what declaration 17 says. It may be only a declaration but it will still be used, just like the working time provisions that were meant to be only a declaration. The courts will say, You have accepted the constitutional assumptions on which the European Court has made its determinations. Those assumptions includeunequivocally, as is shown in cases such as Costa and Handelgesellschaftthe fact that national Parliaments and national constitutions are subject to the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice. All the legislating we do in this place will be reducedpulverisedby the significance of the case law of the ECJ where it chooses to exercise it. Because we have given away so many powers by handing over competences, we are reducing and draining away the powers of the House, but they are not ours to give away. It is not our House. It is not our Parliament. It belongs to the voters.
	Churchill, speaking on this subject, said that Members' first duty was to their country, their second was to their constituents, and only in third place was their duty to their party's policy and programme. We Conservatives believe in that. I personally would like always to obey the Whip, and I have no problem whatever doing so in relation to the Bill. We have acted together. There have been one or two blipsthe other night, for examplebut that is not as important as the fact that we work together.

Michael Connarty: I will not take us back to Churchill, but the hon. Gentleman will recall that recently the European Court of Justice issued a judgment on a case in which a journalist's house was ransacked

William Cash: Tillack.

Michael Connarty: Tillack is the man, yes. He went to the European Court of Justice looking for justice, saying that his right to privacy had been breached, and he lost his case. He then went to the European Court of Human Rights, which awarded him 30,000 and expenses. The hon. Gentleman says that there is no appeal, but in such cases human rights are safeguarded by the European Court of Human Rights. If our citizens find that their rights have been breached by the European Court of Justice, they have recourse to another court.

William Cash: That is a very interesting point. I do not want to spend the whole debate on this issue, but it is a fact that the European Court of Justice cannot be appealed against. Tillack went to a separate court. As it happens, we endorse in law the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg, but we retain the House's sovereignty over the Human Rights Act 1998. I do not want to go right into the Tillack case, but I simply make those points.
	The treaty was conceived and born out of deceit. We know that because we members of the European Scrutiny Committee heard how it was bounced on our Foreign Secretary. On the way in which the treaty was conceived, and born out of the German Government's presidency, I say:
	Treason doth never prosper: what's the reason?
	Why, if it prosper, none dare call it treason.
	The fact is that the treaty is being ratified, and if the Bill is successfully enacted, nobody will be able to turn around and claim that it is treason, because we, as citizens, will all be bound under the treaty. It is not merely a question of whether our constituents will be adversely affected, although I believe that they will be. We are talking about much more than that; we will be made citizens of the European Union, with knobs on. That is another matter that ought to be of grave concern, but it has barely been touched on in our debates.
	I must say that the issue has not been properly reported outside the House. I do not need to go into that again, as I have made the point on a number of occasions. Nobody really knows what the treaty is about, and that is partly because of its complexity, but, with great respect to some of my hon. Friends, it is also because we are told that we must not bang on about Europe. If I am to be accused of banging on about Europe, let me simply say this: I will not apologise, because if I am banging on about Europe, what I am really banging on aboutthose who are listening will know what I meanis the freedom of our voters to make decisions in general elections. I am talking about their daily lives. I am dealing with the questions that arise of whether they should be sent to war, whether they should be killed in Afghanistan, and whether we should have a proper relationship with NATO. I am also dealing with issues of over-regulation.
	There is scarcely any area where the European Union has not taken over. There are still one or two, but they are getting so minuscule that I ask myself what on earth we in the House think we are doing by allowing the Bill to be passed, and the treaty with it. Is Parliament to be reduced, by references to banging on, simply to a forum for platitudes and perceptions? No. We are talking about the daily lives of our constituents and we have an absolute obligationa dutyto go on about it. I would like anyone to challenge me on this question: by what right, and what duty, could anybody stop us saying what we need to say on behalf of our constituents?

Barry Sheerman: Does the hon. Gentleman accept that, while some of us perhaps do not have his degree of arrogance, we believe that we represent our constituents well? We believe that the bulk of our constituents do not like some aspects of Europe because they are complex, bureaucratic and have the drawbacks that one would expect there to be when 27 countries are trying to make something work, but the fact is that they have had 60 years of peace, prosperity and the pursuit of happiness because of the European Union.

William Cash: I would be a good deal more impressed if I thought that the Labour party was prepared to keep its promises on the referendum. Having said that, the question of whether the system works is extremely important, and I want to come to it in a moment. We are not talking about theoretical abstractions, or the theology of sovereignty. We are concerned with practical questions to do with the daily lives of our constituents. That is the acid test.
	On the question of whether we are anti-European, I have been accused in these debates of being a Europhobe, and I should like to say a few things about that. First, I think that I may be entitled to say that my father was killed in Normandy, fighting against tyranny in Europe. Secondly, I have three grandchildren, one of whom is half Greek, and one of whom is half Spanish. Two of my children were married in France, and I have one daughter-in-law who is Italian, and am about to have another who is half Czech.

Hugh Bayley: My father and my grandfather gave the best part of their youth fighting in the second world war and the first world war respectively. They had to go to war because we in Britain were unable to control the actions of other European countries. Surely to goodness one of the benefits of a European Union has been to heal the rift between France and Germanythe rift in Europewith the result that the hon. Gentleman's generation and mine have not had to fight a war in Europe, as our fathers and grandfathers had to.

William Cash: I really do disagree with the hon. Gentleman. It is an important point, and I recognise that many people in the House had family who were involved in the second world war, but I make the point from the vantage point of being accused of being a Europhobe. I am simply pointing out that the House of Commons was, as de Gaulle said in 1960 when he came here, at the foundation of why he was able to go back to a free France. Actually it is NATO, not the European Union, that preserves peace and security in Europe, and I also say this to the hon. Gentleman: look at what is happening in Kosovo. I have to put those points, because they are extremely important. We engaged in a war with Japan, but nobody could honestly say that the fact that we emerged victorious had anything to do with the European Union.

Stewart Jackson: My hon. Friend is making a passionate, sincere case on behalf of his constituents, as always. He will be as disappointed as I am by the insulting, infantile level of debate on the part of Labour Members who are trying to justify the decision to ram through the treaty over the past few weeks. Does he agree that we are witnessing an embedding of the estrangement of a plutocratic elite, who want to create a united states of Europe as a political entity, from the people to whom they are meant to be answerable, just as he and other Members are answerable to the people?

William Cash: I agree with that 100 per cent. It is a very important point, which we have to re-emphasise. The reality is that the system does not work; that is another problem. As I say, this is not just a matter of theory. The system has not, does not, and will not work. The right hon. Member for Leicester, East mentioned the Lisbon agenda. I will not go right into that issue, but the Lisbon agenda is not working. We in the European Scrutiny Committee have been given documents that show why it had to be kick-started again, and why it is not working. Will Hutton, who was the rapporteur to the Lisbon agenda, came to our Committee and said that he did not think it was working properly. There are huge sums of money involved and it is not effective.
	We are creating a compression chamber, and it will not work. Divisions are re-emerging in Europe. Old tensions are re-emerging. There is protectionism at the heart of French policies. There are problems between the European Union and Kosovo, whose Parliament is standing out against the European Union. There are enormous strikes in Germany, which are barely reported, and 19 per cent. unemployment in the eastern part of Germany. The Spanish economy is faltering. NATO is under threat. Russia is reawakening. The Hungarian referendum the other day demonstrates the fact that there is not enough money to pay for the wishes of the people in that country. Fledgling democracies will not be given the money that they were expecting and will start turning against the European Union as it is currently constructed.
	We must get ahead of the curve. The dangerous Europe that is being created is not fit for the present world economy. We have massive illegal immigration. Democracy is being undermined. We are living in an overcentralised, over-regulated Europe.

Barry Sheerman: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The hon. Gentleman has had hours and hours over days and days to make speeches. This is the Third Reading of a Bill concerning the ratification of the treaty. I do not see that his present rant has anything to do with the ratification of the treaty.

Mr. Deputy Speaker: This is the Third Reading of a Bill that has very wide ramifications. If the hon. Member for Stone (Mr. Cash) were not in order, the Chair would have told him so.

William Cash: I am extremely grateful, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I shall conclude by saying

Angus MacNeil: The hon. Gentleman mentioned referendums a moment ago. Is not the reality that only the Irish people can stop Lisbon? Rather than a Europhile lobby discouraging the Irish people from voting no, should we, across the parties in the House, be telling the Irish people that if we had the choice, we would have voted no in both Scotland and England? Perhaps the Irish people can do us the favour that the Dutch people and the French people did with the constitution.

William Cash: I would certainly encourage that, as I did in relation to the Nice treaty. There was a no vote, but the rules were changed so that those supporting the no position were outdone by the amount of money that was then made available to the yes vote. I hope the Irish vote the right way.
	We need the reaffirmation of the supremacy of Parliament.

Keith Vaz: I do not wish to interrupt the hon. Gentleman's peroration, but will he clarify one point? Is he saying that he was against the Nice treaty?

William Cash: Emphatically so. I campaigned hard against it. I forget how many amendments I tabled, but certainly more than 100.
	With regard to the Bill, the Government have been conducting an exercise in appeasement with the European Union. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Wells (Mr. Heathcoat-Amory), who was on the Convention, has pointed out over and over againand he has the documents in the Chamberthe Government disagreed in the Convention but then appeased the rest of the European Union by going along with things that they did not agree with. He has made that case, and thereby performed a great service to the House of Commons and to the country.
	It is essential that we have an association of nation states in order to be able to get out of the logjamthe impossible concrete construction that is being created. It will disintegrate, causing enormous trouble for the rest of Europe. A dangerous Europe is being created and it will crack like The Fall of the House of Usher. It is completely inflexible and it needs to be changed. It can be changed only by renegotiation. In the words of John of Gaunt,
	That England, that was wont to conquer others,
	Hath made a shameful conquest of itself.
	He said that that had been done
	With inky blots, and rotten parchment bonds
	and that is what the treaty is.

Denis MacShane: I always enjoy the speeches of the hon. Member for Stone (Mr. Cash). He has been making largely the same case against Europe since the Maastricht treaty. I was not in the House then, but I heard similar speeches on the Amsterdam treaty, then on the Nice treaty. He is a man of integrity. He quoted John of Gaunt. I might quote the exchange between Hotspur and Glendower in Henry IV, when Glendower says:
	I can call spirits from the vasty deep
	and Hotspur says, yes,
	But will they come when you do call for them?
	From the depths of his opposition to Europe the hon. Gentleman has over all my 14 years in Parliamentno doubt longer in his casebeen sketching out the image of a Europe about to devour us, but of course it never happens. I gently and with some affection, as we are both interested in the subject, put to him that the treaty, if ratified tonight and then ratified in another place, will not so fundamentally alter our relationship with Europe. Europe, in the end, is organic; it is plastic; it is what we make it. He talked about a concrete straitjacket that was cracking like The Fall of the House of Usherhe was taking me down literary highways and byways where I could not follow him.
	Europe is what the 27 sovereign national Governments decide to make it. The treaty of Lisbon

Angus MacNeil: The right hon. Gentleman is talking about the Governments. What about what the people want Europe to be?

Denis MacShane: Whether the hon. Gentleman likes it or not, the House of Commons is democratically elected. I am fascinated to learn tonight that the Scottish National party seems to be throwing in its lot with the more nationalisticif I may put it like thatwing of the English Conservative party. That is a marriage made on the green Benches but it will end up in a funny place. I do not believe that if the main Opposition party wants to govern the country sitting on the Government Benches it can have any truck with the lurid nationalism that the hon. Gentleman has just expressed.
	Speaking for the Conservative party, the right hon. Member for Richmond, Yorks (Mr. Hague) saidobviously the quote will have to be checked in  Hansard tomorrow, but I took a noteWe want to be in the European Union, but not with this treaty. I think I got him right in saying that. That of course is the eternal problem: everybody can dream of their perfect European Union. Many of our continental partners consider the Lisbon treaty to be written and made in Britain. They regard the present Commission as over-liberalising, over-Anglo Saxon, over-free trade. The European Union that they might wish formore social, more environmental, more supranationalis not reflected in the treaty at all.
	I invite hon. Members to read the foreign pressI might have suggested that they consult their sister parties in Europe, but we know that that is not on the agenda of the Conservative partyand they will find all the arguments going in a different direction. I must gently say toI am tempted to call him my hon. Friend the Member for Stonemy honourable debating partner that every treaty implies the coming together and the sharing of some sovereignty between its signatory nations. If not, there would be no point in treaties.
	Once they have been negotiated, signed and ratified, treaties exist until one of two things happen: either all the signatories agree to rewrite the treaty, or a party to that treaty, a ratifying member, simply quits. We have the sovereign power in the House of Commons. We do not need article 49 in the new treaty, which I find rather ill-written, in that it permits nations to leave the European Union. We can leave the European Union tomorrow by a vote of this House of Commons. France can leave the European Union tomorrow, so can Poland, so can Sweden, by a vote of their sovereign Parliaments. The real problem is that what the Conservatives want is not on offer. It is not on offer from the World Trade Organisation treaty, from our Spanish friends in the treaty of Utrecht, or from my left-wing friends in the North Atlantic treatythe treaty that set up NATO. Treaties are about sharing some sovereignty for a greater good.

Stewart Jackson: rose

Angus MacNeil: rose

Denis MacShane: I had better give way first to a Conservative colleague, and then I will revert to the Scottish version of the English nationalists.

Stewart Jackson: I thank the right hon. Gentleman and pay tribute to the sincerity with which he holds his views, although I believe that he is more or less totally wrong in most of them. He makes a point about treaties. Will he explain how, for instance, the strategic arms limitation treaty between the Soviet Union and the United States in the 1970s led to a transfer of power from each to the other? They engaged in that treaty for their mutual benefit, which is what sovereign countries do and what treaties are aboutthey are not necessarily about the transfer of sovereign power.

Denis MacShane: That treaty said to the Pentagon and to the bosses of the red army, You can't do that which you've been doing up to nowthat is, continue building up their armed strength. It was a massive interference in the sovereign right of both nations to continue in that area. All treaties are like that.

Angus MacNeil: Are not treaties something that we join and agree to be in together as opposed to something that we are forced to fit in with by compromising and doing what we do not want to do?

Denis MacShane: The hon. Gentleman, like all Scottish nationalist Members during these debates since I have been in the House, has focused on the problem of fisheries. They have a point, but that was a concession made in 1972 that cannot be brought back without 26 other member states agreeing to it. However, we cannot unilaterally say that, for example, we do not want Ryanjet to land here because it is in competition with our national airline.

Angus MacNeil: rose

Denis MacShane: Let me finish my speech, and then there will be time for everybody else.
	The hon. Member for Stone, who you rightly did not call to order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, saidI hope that I am not doing any injustice to his argumentthat it was somehow treasonable to vote for the ratification of the treaty of Lisbon. Well, I hope that I am not a traitor to myself, my country, my party, my constituency or any of the other areas that he listed. Much of this rather lurid language does not help; it neither heats up nor illuminates.
	We have had in our past distinguished Members of this House making this point. Here is the former Prime Minister, Clement Attlee, in 1960:
	I'm not very keen on the Common Market. After all, we beat Germany, and we beat Italy and we saved France, Belgium and Holland. I never see why we should go crawling to them.
	That from a man who is a hero for many of us on my side of the House, but it is, frankly, a ghastly point of view. Alternatively, going to the heart of the point made by the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr. MacNeil), here is Churchill speaking in this House in June 1950:
	we are prepared to consider, and if convinced to accept, the abrogation of national sovereignty.
	He went on to say that
	national sovereignty is not inviolable, and...it may be
	safely
	diminished for the sake of all the men in all the lands finding their way home together.[ Official Report, 27 June 1950; Vol. 476, c. 2159.]
	I would argue that 27 European nation states are now trying to find their way to a 21st-century home together that was certainly not on offer when Churchill made that speech.

William Cash: I would just add that in the Zurich speech Churchill said unequivocally that we should be associated but not absorbed.

Denis MacShane: I think that the hon. Gentleman actually refers to an article that Churchill wrote in 1930. We can exchange Churchill quotes or biblical quotes, but it is

Barry Sheerman: Does my right hon. Friend agree that, compared with the period that Churchill and Attlee lived through, with the instability, the wars and the ghastly things that happened in Europe, during our lifetimes we have been much more successful, across parties, in helping to construct, by modifying Europe, building on it and changing ityes, with different treatiesa Europe of peace and prosperity where people can pursue happiness?

Denis MacShane: I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. I have spent 14 years debating these issuesmy maiden speech was on Europeand the more that I do so, the less I sense that I am absolutely 100 per cent. confident in everything I say. Some modesty and brevity is useful, and I will try to apply that lesson tonight.
	Another great Labour leader, Hugh Gaitskell, said in 1962 that joining the Common Market would mean
	the end of Britain as an independent nation-state.
	 [ Interruption. ] I detect from the hon. Member for Stone some support for that position. The right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood), who is not with us tonight, said that signing the treaty of Amsterdam would mean the end of Britain as a nation state. The right hon. Member for Richmond, Yorks famously said before the 2001 election that to vote for a pro-European Labour party again to be returned to power would mean that Britain would become a foreign land. That hyperbole does neither its Labour nor its Conservative articulators any good at all.
	I want to deal briefly with three of the myths that have been perpetrated throughout this debateI mean the debate beyond the wide-ranging debate in the House in the past two months that has taken place more generally in recent years. The first myth is the notion of Europe as a behemotha giant devouring machine that is eradicating sovereignty and the power of this House of Commons. If one looks at the simple economic facts, 99 per cent. of all Europe's incomeits gross national income, to use the technical phrasestays in the hands of its nation states. Of the 1 per cent. transferred to Brussels, 85 per cent. is immediately transferred to nation states in the form of agricultural subsidies. I share the criticisms of the common agricultural policy, but if we did not have the CAP, we would have a BAPa British agricultural policyand all the gentlemen who get the massive subsidies that they now do from Brussels would be making life hell, particularly for Conservative Members, who tend to represent more agricultural communities than my party does, by demanding massive agricultural subsidies. One seventh15 per cent.of 1 per cent. of that money stays with the Commission for it to do what it wants with it. I put it to the House that the notion that one can create a super-state or a federal monster, or that one can destroy the national sovereignty of the 27 member states of Europe with just one seventh of 1 per cent. of their money, does not make sense.
	The second great myth is that Europe is dictating all the laws of this House. The shadow Foreign Secretary and I had an exchange during a previous debate, and he brought it up very gently and respectfully again today, quoting the Prime Minister against me, or perhaps me against the Prime Minister. Of course, all Prime Ministers at all times are infalliblethey cannot be wrong. I occasionally have a kind of old-fashioned interest in the truth. That has often got in the way of successful politics, which is probably why I am not a successful politician.
	I asked the Library to freshen up its continuing study about the amount of legislation that we decide on in this Parliament that emanates from the European Union. I asked for the document to be sent to me last week after that exchange, but it is publicly available in the Library. It showed that so far this century approximately 10 per cent., at the highest point, of all the laws that we pass are to do with the European Union. Within that 10 per cent., 50 per cent. of trade rules to do with the single market stem from the European Union and 25 per cent. of environmental rules are to do with the European Union. I think that the Prime Minister used the word regulationsI do not want to gloss what he said; he did not talk about lawsand, yes, 50 per cent. of our regulations that are to do with the single market originate from the European Union, just as they must for every other country if we want the single market to work for them.
	The Commission has 16,000 employeesfewer than the BBCand one seventh of 1 per cent. of Europe's gross national income. The House of Commons is still responsible for 90 per cent. of legislation, such as taxation, health spending, education, policing, the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Bill, sending people to prison, decisions on whether to go to war, and our main foreign policy alliances. All those matters are settled in this House, as they are in the Assemble Nationale, the Bundestag, the Sejm, the Cortes and the other national Parliaments in other European countries.
	The second great myth is that the new treaty is identical to the constitutional treaty. I have some knowledge of that matter as the Europe Minister responsible at the time. Conservative Members tend to pray in aid their experience of the Convention. They make interesting historical points, but the main recommendations of the Convention presided over by Giscard d'Estaing were rejected by the intergovernmental conference that followed. The constitutional treaty that emerged from the process was, in turn, rejected by the voters of France and the Netherlands, and it was declared dead here, not so much by my party, but by Conservative Members. I remember well the hon. Member for Woodspring (Dr. Fox) saying, I am a doctor. I know death when I see it. This constitution is dead. The less original Opposition Members referred to the famous dead parrot of lore. We all agreed that the treaty was dead, but for the purposes of anti-European argument, it has to be brought back to life.
	The pledge to have a referendum on which all parties agreed in their 2005 election manifestos related to that constitutional treaty, but it was killed barely a month after the election of the new Parliament, and those commitments died with it. At the end of each Session, any laws that have not been passed in this House die. Unless we are introducing a new constitutional innovation in the House that any pledge given in general terms on any issue has to be sustained throughout the eternity of successive Parliaments, I do not understand how Conservative Members can intellectually say that today's treaty is identical to the constitutional treaty that was killed, even if much of the anti-European press make that argument.

Mark Harper: No one on this side has said that the treaty is identical

Denis MacShane: Ah!

Mark Harper: No, we never have. All we have said, as most European leaders have said, is that it is between 90 and 96 per cent. the samesimilar enough that the promise to have a referendum holds. That is what the right hon. Gentleman should be holding to.

Denis MacShane: I accept that the hon. Gentleman, many other hon. Members and many members of the public believe that. We can argue about and rattle around on whether something can be 90 per cent. the same as something else or 90 per cent. the same DNAcan someone be 90 per cent. a virgin?but even as the hon. Gentleman says that the treaty is 90 per cent. the same he is saying that it is not the same.
	In two key respects, the new treaty is fundamentally different. It is much shorter in length, but we can leave that argument to one side. It does not contain references to Beethoven's Ode to Joy or to the Council of Europe flag, designed in 1954, which was adopted as the European flag, but the most important difference is that it leaves all the other treaties in place. The constitutional treaty rolled all of the existing treaties into one giant document. It was a re-founding moment for the whole of the Common Market and the European Union. The Lisbon treaty leaves all existing treaties in place. Unless we have a new doctrine that says that we must have referendums on any significant international treaty, it is not right to pray in aid a pledge given on a document that was killed in June 2005 by the Dutch and the French.
	The third great myth is that Britain should look to different areas of the world because Europe is pass, and that our future lies on the other side of the Atlantic, or in engaging with our global partners in the shape of the rising powers of China and India. Yet we export more to the Netherlands than we do to China; Switzerland invests more in the UK than all of the Asian powers put together. We want a powerful relationship with the United States, but I note that last year European growth was higher than that of America; inflation was lower and productivity was higher. In dollar terms, the UK now has higher GDP per capita than the United States.
	Thanks to British leadership, going right back to Margaret Thatcher and the Single European Act, John Major and the Maastricht treaty and Tony Blair with the treaties of Amsterdam and Nice, we have created a Europe that is a lot more confident. It could be better; growth could be strongerof course it couldbut let us recognise that Europe today serves British interests very well. Between 800,000 and a million of our citizens live in Spain, but they are not treated as unwelcome immigrants, as anyone who speaks with a foreign accent in Britain is treated by some sections of the press, or by some in our political system.

Mark Lazarowicz: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for pointing out some of the economic successes of Europe. He will also be aware that the Eurosceptics tried to suggest that the introduction of the euro by eurozone countries was going to be a disasterthat it would collapse and would not work. He will be aware that the euro is increasingly becoming a currency of choice for states throughout the world, and for funds and investors in Europe and beyond.

Denis MacShane: My hon. Friend is right. As a rough rule of thumb, the nightmares predicted about Britain's engagement in Europe since the first great conference in The Hague in 1948 to set up the Council of Europe, which led to the Coal and Steel Community and the treaty of RomeI read some of them from the remarks of Hugh Gaitskell and Clem Attleehave never come to pass.
	We are seeing a sea change in the approach of the United States. The right hon. Member for Richmond, Yorks complained that there was not adequate discussion on the defence clauses of the treaty. He had a legitimate complaint. He could, however, have shortened his speech on foreign policy and let in some of his hon. Friends who wanted to talk on defence, but he has been delighting us with more comic turns than I have seen since the disappearance of Les Dawson as a working men's club comedian. The right hon. Gentleman has a great future treading the boards in the north if he ever chooses to give up his current isolationist politics.

James Clappison: The right hon. Gentleman is making a passionate speech, but there has been no scrutiny at all of the important clauses in the treaty that make important changes to our defence commitments because the Government allowed so little time for detailed scrutiny. We did not even manage to reach the defence provisions.

Denis MacShane: I laid out three myths, but if the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, this is a fourth one: that somehow everything that happens in the House of Commons is entirely dictated by the Government. Opposition Members tabled amendments, and were able to divide up their time as they wish. The shadow defence spokesman could have led in that debate, had the Front-Bench team so decided.
	Let us look now at what the United States is doing and saying. From trips to Washington as a member of the NATO Parliamentary Assembly, I believe that we are witnessing an important change in American strategic thinking. The go-it-alone ideas expressed by Donald Rumsfeldperhaps sometimes brutally when he was Secretary of Defenceand some others who are loosely called neo-conservatives are now perceived by the State Department, the Pentagon and, I believe, the White House, to be redundant. America needs to rebuild its partnership with Europe and we, as Europeans, need to rebuild our partnership with America.
	Victoria Nuland, the American ambassador to NATO a Republican appointee and very high representative of the United States, who does not say anything that is not cleared at the highest levelsaid recently in Paris that she wanted a stronger EU, able to act independently. The American decision to give a major US air force contract to Airbus, which is important for British jobs and British industry, signals an American desire to work more closely with Europe and accept the sort of thinking that the former Prime Minister set out in the St. Malo declaration of 1998 about building more coherence around European defence. I welcome that. The security challenges of the world are too serious to be handled exclusively by the United Statesor even exclusively by the United States and Britain.

Linda Gilroy: Does my right hon. Friend also believe that burden sharing, which is one of the concerns of those of us who take an interest in defence, especially in Afghanistan, could be overcome by the permanent structured co-operation provisions in the Lisbon treaty? Many commentators believe that it will be difficult to make that work.

Denis MacShane: Let me disappoint and reassure my hon. Friend at the same time. No institutional framework can replace or command the national will of sovereign nation states to send their young men and women to put themselves in harm's way, or the national will of nation states to recognise or refuse to recognise Kosovo. That must be understood. The notion that, as a result of the treaty, President Sarkozy or Chancellor Merkel will substantially change their actions as the democratically elected heads of the Governments of France and of Germany, or that what the Bundestag allows Chancellor Merkel to do or what President Sarkozy chooses to do about rejoining NATO will be affected, is wrong. In pure theory, one can claim anything about any treaty, but that does not reflect what happens on the ground.
	We have heard some enjoyable speeches. I have enjoyed the contributions of my hon. Friend the Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk (Michael Connarty). I commend him, as Chairman of the European Scrutiny Committee, for reading into the record extracts from the treaty, especially on social rights and other matters that far too many members of my party and political family do not realise are in the text.
	I commend especially the right hon. and learned Member for Rushcliffe (Mr. Clarke) and the right hon. Members for Suffolk, Coastal (Mr. Gummer) and for Skipton and Ripon (Mr. Curry), who have done the best debating from behind their Front Bench. The right hon. and learned Member for Kensington and Chelsea (Sir Malcolm Rifkind), who is not in his place, punctured the windy bombast of the shadow Foreign Secretary's claims that the new president of the EU or the high representative would be omnipotent and infallible and dictate to the world. The right hon. and learned Gentleman, who knows of what he speaks as a former Foreign Secretaryand I do not believe that he opposes the pro-referendum rhetoric of his partyeffectively told the shadow Foreign Secretary, Stop talking through your backside. This is utter nonsense. I hope that someone will put together a compendium of those speeches, because they represent common sense in the Conservative party.
	When Britain joined the EU, my party opposed that. Several young Labour Members of Parliament, including John Smith, Lord Radice and Lord Hattersley, defied the Labour party and voted for Europe. They kept the idea of Europe alive as serious politics in the Labour party and, when the time came, after the lunacy of the 1983 election manifesto, enough Labour Members of Parliament were ready to make the case for Europe. We see none of that in the Conservative party. Never, in the Conservative party's history, have such isolationist prejudices been given free rein, with hardly a check, especially from younger Members. If no young Conservative Members are prepared to speak for Europe, that proves to me that they are wholly unfit to govern this country in the foreseeable future.

Several hon. Members: rose

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Obviously many hon. Members are still seeking to catch my eye, and speeches so far have been lengthy. Unless colleagues can shorten their speeches a little, many of them will be disappointed.

Richard Shepherd: I hope to be brief. I am not trying to get into the Luvvies column in  Private Eye, unlike the right hon. Members for Leicester, West (Ms Hewitt), for Leicester, East (Keith Vaz) and for Rotherham (Mr. MacShane).
	I oppose Third Reading, first for procedural reasons. The imposition of a tailor-made guillotine that limited, in theory, each day's debate on clause 2the heart and guts of the Billto one and a half hours, which had to be amended to allow a little more time, defeated the purpose of providing the measure with legitimacy in the country and the Chamber. My right hon. Friend the shadow Foreign Secretary detailed that to some extent.
	On day one, we did not debate borders, visas, asylum and migrationor judicial co-operation in civil matters, which was the third grouping for that day. On day two, we did not debate difficulties in the supply of certain products, meaning energy. On day three, we had only an hour and a half to consider the charter of fundamental rights. Not all Members who were present could speak, and the subject of personal data was simply not discussed. On day four, the internal market and common commercial policy took up the allocated three hoursan amendment to the original guillotine. Not all hon. Members who wished to speak got in. Social policies, free movement of workers and establishment were not debated. Intellectual property and economic and monetary policy were not discussed.
	On day five, the external representation of the EUthe foreign service, or whatever one chooses to call ittook up the three hours. Not everyone could speak and the common security and defence policy, let alone other aspects of that policy, was therefore not debated. On day six, which was about aid and development, competence and policy took up the two hours so that the subject that mattered to the world outsideaid operationswas not debated. Incidentally, we got two hours instead of the hour and a half that was initially allocated.
	On day seven, which was about competences of the EU and its institutions, relationships with member states took up the three hours allocated. Let us remember that the Government graciously altered their guillotine to provide another hour and a half so that the debate had three hours rather than an hour and a half, but what was not debated? The operation of the institutions, the EU constitutional and treaty revision issues and legislative and decision-making procedures three whole groupingswere not discussed. It is impossible.
	On day eight, the topic was the effect on Parliamentthat is what I was really interested inand it took up the allocated two hours. Again, the Government had graciously extended their guillotine to allow us an extra 60 minutes. However, we still could not discuss in that extra time Competences: remaining issues or climate change.
	The custom-made guillotine, introduced in the name of the Labour Chief Whipthe undertaker, as I think of himand the Foreign Secretary as the leader on the matter, is brutal. However, the other person who signed the motion, of whom we have not seen a whit, is supposedly the Leader of the House. Where is she? Where has she been? She did not introduce the guillotine and did not attest that, on the balance of arguments, it was an appropriate way to consider what is a constitutional change if not in the European scene, then to our constitution. We have signally failed to measure the provisions against what we have and what is held out for us.
	New Labour's impertinence and the self-serving disdain in which it holds anyone who does not share its opinion almost disqualifies it from representative government. People have different views and there is no perfect way in this world, but most of us respect and recognise the purposes of the House. What are they? Has the treaty shifted the balance of power and decision away from us to other institutions? This is not a question of vanity; it concerns the power of the British people to hold to account those who make their laws. What has happened since the originating treaty, during the time I have been in Parliament, has been the constant slicing away at the concept that politicians, instead of a bureaucratic elite, should determine what is right for the people who send us here.
	I wonder about the ridiculous right hon. Member for Leicester, East. He toured the country when he was Minister for Europe and was the only person in the country who could find only two Eurosceptics, so we know what an open mind he has. One, I recall, was called Kevin. That is how low and absurd some of the personalities of our European debate have now become.
	The right hon. Member for Leicester, West referred to people who spoke in these debates previously. One of them was Peter Shore, whom I want to quote because he spoke on things that matter. He represented a great traditionI am not knocking the Labour tradition at alland argued in a debate on a Bill that I introduced and which was the last Bill on which Mrs. Thatcher voted in the House. The Bill, which he supported, addressed two major points about referendums, the first of which was their role. I mention referendums because our amendment in that connection was defeated in the debate on the current Bill. It is for that reason I cannot support this Billthat among a number of reasons, in fact.
	The first major point about my Bill, said Peter Shore, was
	the role of the referendum, which offers one of the few possibilities to remedy a fundamental weakness in our constitution. We have no written constitution and no procedures to protect and entrench features of our national and constitutional life. Everything can be changed by a simple majority. Many other countries, as we know, have quite elaborate procedures requiring a majority of two thirds for changes in constitutional matters and arrangements, often backed up with public referendums.
	We have no such defence. Indeed, previously we did not need them, because only this generation of British parliamentary representatives has contemplated handing to others the great prizes of national independence, self-government and the rule of law under our own elected representatives. It would not have occurred to a previous generation to hand to others that which we prize most greatly and have given to other countries throughout the world in the past 50 years. That is the novelty of the proposition, against which, because we did not think it conceivable, we have no defences.[ Official Report, 21 February 1992; Vol. 204, c. 590.]
	That is the truth of why we are here and what has gone so badly wrong. A simple majority can impose on the House of Commons a guillotine so stringent that we cannot even discuss the contents of a major treaty properly. That is the first thing.
	Secondly, the Government claim that they have the authority of the British people because they are elected. We are all elected. All of us, in our own way, try muddlingly to identify that which best suits the national interest and those who send us here. But the people knowor rather knewthat, at the end of the day, if we got it wrong, they got rid of us; and they have, as they will again. We have had certain things quoted enoughwe have heard Mr. Blair's latest thought, his previous thought, his middle thought and his last thought. We have also had the Prime Minister's attestation that we would have a line-by-line consideration of the treaty and his understandinghe said thisthat this treaty would be not the constitutional treaty, but the Lisbon treaty.
	We danced over how many hours we would get and however many days. On clause 2the heart of the Billthe debate amounted to 19 hours, which is less time than many of our Bills take in Committee upstairs. Yet we are talking about a constitutional measure for which the Government seek the authority of a vote in the House. It is a shallow vote. They have hollowed out the House and they have hollowed out the British people's ability to hold to account.
	That is what I meant when I mentioned the rule of law. What do we mean by the rule of law? We mean that we expect every citizen of this country to obey the law. They obey the law because they know that it is made by their representatives and they stand behind that; and if the law is wrong, they change it. Now we have heard the former Secretary of State for Health, the right hon. Member for Leicester, West, suggest that we do not understand the world, that somehow it has moved on and that the people out there are better served by, effectively, decisions made by a grand bureaucracy centred in Brussels. The people there are not accountable to us.
	Peter Shore went on to sayand it is truethat even if the European Parliament were democratic, it could not represent the British people as the basis of authority for making law. Why not? Because the people there represent other polities, other nations and other states. The European Parliament is only a congress, in that sense. That we should bear decisions that are made by a majority of others who are not accountable to the people we are sent here to represent is an argument in itself, and a defence of a constitutional arrangement.
	That is what this debate has been about for many of us in the House. That is why for the Government and, I must say, the Liberal Democrats to treat people out there as if they have no say in such matters is the most shockingindeed, I shall say profoundly shockingfeature of this managed, staged debate. It was not the Government who called an end to the discussion on clause 2; it was the Deputy Speaker, who was mindful to put the Question that all the matters had been debated. The first that I ever saw of it was in the selection of amendments.
	Those are ways in which we reduce ourselves. It is very difficult to make a case in the House now. Everything is guillotined, but that does not matter; we will look at the essence of the treaty. It is very difficult for many outside this place not to see, as I see, that there has been a progressive withdrawal of powers from people and their ability to change them to institutions that are not accountable to them as a peoplethat is what I mean by polity.
	When I say that this is a land of liberty, I think of the declaration of Arbroath, our Magna Carta, the Bill of Rights and those marches as part of a great constitutional settlement. We went out, once upon a time, proud to be associated. Those were the people who made a constitution. I go to America now and what do I hear? Therebut not in this country anymoreI hear of the Magna Carta and the great common law. That is one of the things that distinguishes the view of the European Unionthe common law versus the civil legal tradition, the Napoleonic code tradition or whatever one wants to call it. I do not knock that tradition; I just observe that it looks at the moon from a different angle from us.
	The common law tradition gives our courts a subordinate positionI should like to remind the, I think, shadow Liberal Democrat Attorney-General that the judges can be dismissed by Parliament, the representatives of the people. That does not happen, because by and large we have confidence in the processes that have been established, not on the back of a treaty written half an hour ago or over 20 months in Europe, but over the practised evolution of our institutions.
	The Minister for Europe, who has giggled his way through these debates in an amiable fashion, has let those great issues go slipping under the carpet. When it came to the very sovereignty of Parliament, what did he say? He said that Dicey was the classic expression of that. If the Minister does not know, the Clerks will tell him: in the third edition, and because of the Irish problems in the 19th century, Dicey came to the conclusion that a referendum might be a device by which to secure something in which we believe, or someone such as me believesthat is, the sovereignty of Parliament, which is the sovereignty of the people. That is why I shall vote against the treaty.

Michael Connarty: I am pleased that the hon. Member for Aldridge-Brownhills (Mr. Shepherd) went into his philosophical mode. Sadly, the bitterness of some of his contributions has been overpowering, and it often overpowered him more than anyone else.
	The great problem is that the definition of a constitutional settlement can be grounded either in history or in the future. I used to teach A-level government and political systems and I studied the British constitution as a subject. I taught the subject when Lady Thatcher was in power. The conclusion of all who wrote then about the constitution was that a Prime Minister with a large majority was more powerful than an American President with a large majority from his or her own election because such a Prime Minister ran the Government like a presidency. Sadly, that process continued into the first phase of the Labour Government, when things were clearly run from the centre.
	The attractions of the British constitution, unwritten though it is, are not to me so glowing and wonderful; that moon that shines down may have blinded some Members to the fact that a powerful Prime Minister with a large majority and a strong whipping system is practically unstoppable and can make or break, destroy or change, a country for ever. At different times, people will judge that Lady Thatcher's and Mr. Tony Blair's terms of office had a measure of both tendencies, given what they did to the country that they led.
	It was interesting that the hon. Member for Moray (Angus Robertson) was squirming when there was talk of the British constitution, how wonderful it was and how we all had to represent one thing. Many people think that when people come here there is a unity of several countries as well as of several individual UK peoplesso we are, in a sense, a collective, just as the European Union is.
	Given its struggles, it appears that the Scottish National party is not too happy with the collective of which it is a member. At one time, that party's slogan was Independence in Europe, which is interesting. I understand why individual things in the treaty might not be attractive to that party, but the fact is that it cannot see itself saying that it would support the essence of the treaty, whether there were a referendum or not.

Angus Robertson: For the record, I have stated already that the Scottish National party has welcomed more than 95 per cent. of the treaty. The single, red-line, outstanding issue for us has been the incorporation of fishing as an exclusive competence, its entrenchment in the treaty and the fact that no referendum is being held. We are standing by the principle. We are opposing Third Reading because we are sticking to our manifesto pledge.

Denis MacShane: With the Tories!

Michael Connarty: From a sedentary position, my right hon. Friend mentioned the word Tories, although I do not recognise that in the Scottish National party. That party has responded to the wishes of the Scottish people not to be represented by any party that takes the same political line and social balance in its policies as the Conservative party. Perhaps the Scottish National party has not yet realised that even aligning itself with the Conservative party to get its policies through in Scotland may come back to haunt it, as happened to many councils that relied on Conservative support.
	I should like to put on the record my thanks to the Foreign Secretary, the Minister for Europe and their shadow counterparts for how they have led this debate. I have no negative comments about the humour introduced, intellectually and pointedly, by the right hon. Member for Richmond, Yorks (Mr. Hague). He quoted Valry Giscard d'Estaing a little too much for me; I was getting a little bored by that. He forgot to quote the Dutch Council of State, which considered the new treaty and said that it was not a constitution. The right hon. Gentleman did not quote the French either; furthermore, even the Danish could not raise a party to campaign for a referendum in their Parliament.
	The reality is that throughout Europe, no party thinks that the treaty is a constitutionexcept the party that wants to use that for political advantage in this Chamber.

Theresa Villiers: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Michael Connarty: Ah! I see a Member new to this debate. I shall let the hon. Lady read her name on to the record, although she has not been here for the past 11 days.

Theresa Villiers: The hon. Gentleman says that no one else agrees that the treaty is in fact the constitution, but the author of the constitution has said plainly that he believes that the treaty is the constitution in all but name. Surely Mr. Giscard d'Estaing counted as someone significant when he made it plain that what we are debating is the constitution.

Michael Connarty: That is probably the weakest argument that I have ever heard. If someone is proud of something that they put before the people, but that was defeated in two referendums and then altered in negotiations between countries that want something useful and if those countries come up with something that is not what that person put forward, of course the person will claim that it is the same thing. They will not want to be told that their idea was basically dumped, but that ideato have a constitution for Europewas dumped.

Theresa Villiers: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Michael Connarty: No, I will not. I have taken on board Mr. Deputy Speaker's caution about other people wanting to speak. I may have more to say than he is pleased with. Due to the fact that I have been chairing European Scrutiny Committee sittings, I have often had only four or five minutes to speak at the end of a debate in which I would like to have participated more. I have a number of things to say.
	The point is that some people did want a constitution. If they had got away with it, there would have been one treaty, a president of Europe and a Foreign Secretary of Europe, but all those things have been taken out of the treaty. The right hon. Member for Richmond, Yorks referred to a turf war because of the president of the Council, to whom people still refer as the president of the EU. If there was going to be a turf war, it would be between the president of the Councila Council, not Commission, memberand the president of the Commission. That is what happens at the moment. The Council goes into discussions about something that the Commission proposes, and there is a turf war.
	The great thing is that someone will be representing and carrying on the work of the Council in two-and-a-half-year terms, with a Council secretariat. Hopefully, that person will apply more leverage against the Commission so that the Commission does not have things all its own way, which happens at the moment.
	The shadow Foreign Secretary also asked why there was not primary legislation in respect of common foreign security policy and defence. That suggestion was also put forward by the Foreign Affairs Committee. All we have on the record is the Prime Minister's declaration that any time we move from having a veto to qualified majority votingusing the passerelles, as they are calledthat will be decided on the Floor of the House. Why should there not be primary legislation? Given my analysis of the treaty and all the logic that applies to my, and many people's, concern about the sovereignty of the House, why should there not be primary legislation for such far-reaching decisions? That is something for the Government to think about; they have not yet answered our questions about the process that involves this Parliament in the moves that we make in respect of the opt-outs and protocols.
	I was impressed by the many contributions of the right hon. and learned Member for Kensington and Chelsea (Sir Malcolm Rifkind), who unfortunately is no longer in his place. It is amazing that a man of his statureI knew him when he was a junior Minister in the Scottish Office when I was a council leader fighting against the Thatcher proposals for local governmentwhose logic, honesty and integrity I have always respected should be sidelined not because of age or lack of talent, but simply because the Eurosceptics have what they tell me is a blocking minority on the Conservative party in opposition. If that is the case, it is a very sad day for the Conservative party and for the people in Britain that it claims to representthe businesses, the civil society and the constituents whose interests and concerns are helped along by Europe as much as by anything else we can do in this House. I wonder why the right hon. and learned Gentleman has been sidelined.
	In respect of Schengen, the right hon. and learned Gentleman referred to an  la carte menu for justice and home affairs. That is one way of looking at it, but not how the UK's approach is regarded by everyone else I meetin the Conference of Community and European Affairs Committees and in European Parliaments, for example. They respect us, but, in terms of the EU arrangements, they view us as the most detached member. We have no euro and we have no Schengen borders. Contrary to the mythology we heard earlier about Schengen borders, we do not have the same border controls. We made a virtueI believe it was the wrong thing to doin our proposals for the 2001 election of our intention not to sign Schengen and not to come within the Schengen borders, but to have our own immigration system. I think that that weakened the Schengen system, just as our non-participation in the euro weakened the euro system.
	That decision bounced back on us and we became a target for illegal immigration. After all, if someone gets into a Schengen country, they will want out of it because they have been given a transit visa, so where do those immigrants head? They go to the nearest non-Schengen country, which is the UK. That is what has happened. We took a terrible decision and if we ever get the necessary opt-ins, it will take us a long time to get the Schengen arrangements working properly.

Peter Lilley: Why does the hon. Gentleman think that the head of Germany's police union said that the lifting of border controls on Germany's borders with Poland and the Czech Republic, when those countries joined Schengen, was an invitation to criminals and that European citizens will
	suffer a considerable loss in terms of security?

Michael Connarty: The right hon. Gentleman would have to ask the German police that, and he would also need to ask the German Government why they decided not to allow people to come immediately to work in their country when the European Union was enlarged. If the right hon. Gentleman went to Poland, as I did with a former Conservative Agriculture Minister, he would find that the people of Poland believe that the problem of an enlarging Europe is that the Germans and Dutch are coming back to buy up all their land. The Poles do not make much money off their own land and are being pushed off what land they have. There have been tensions along that border for many years, which was probably being expressed in those comments from that German police officer. There is no evidence to suggest that Germany is facing the sort of problem that the right hon. Gentleman has described.

Angus Robertson: During the 1990s, when I reported for the BBC in central Europe, I remember interviewing an Austrian general on the border with Hungary who was concerned, as were the Austrian Government, about the potential for criminality from the Hungarian side, as from the Czech and Slovak side, yet within two years, it was clear that there were no such problems whatever. There may need to be transitional arrangements, but as the economies of central and eastern Europe improve in the longer term, the problem of criminality as a result of different standards of living becomes progressively ameliorated.

Michael Connarty: I take that point and hope that everyone else will. I believe that any form of xenophobia is a very bad thing for the project and, indeed, for the world we live in. We now live in a global village, as Marshall McLuhan predicted back in the 1960s. We have to get used to it and come to understand that what seems to some to be a threat may be our saving grace.
	The truth is that people are not really talking against the Lisbon treaty, but against the process of the European Unionwhat I as a member and Chair of the European Scrutiny Committee recognise as clear Commission creep. There is such Commission creep because that plutocracy was given power to try to put together arrangements for the advancement of a closer and closer Europe in order to prevent Europe from being run by politicians who would go to war when they could not solve problems. We have moved on from that, however, as the process is now about economic development, social development, enlargement and making the European Union a place of safety, security and, hopefully, human rights for people who did not have them under the previous Soviet communist arrangements.
	Many everyday things will not change when the treaty goes through and the various directives, regulations and framework decisions come into forcethe process under which the European Commission can get rules, regulations and laws on to the statute book. There will be green papers, white papers and even the non-papers. The EU is the only organisation in the world I know that presents non-papers. I predict that they will eventually become green, then white papers and eventually directives. That is how the EU gets things on the agenda. We are used to dealing with that process every week. I hope that people will read our reports, which are printed every week, and see exactly how our business is done.
	In respect of the post-constitution and post-referendum period, at COSAC and Future of Europe meetings or even in face-to face meetings with Franco Frattini, I have saidI believe I said it in  Hansardthat the constitution is dead. The constitution was dead, because that arrangement would never have got through under the barrier. Even by taking 5 per cent. out, the treaty was acceptable to the French Government, who took two daysone and a half days in the Chamber of Deputies and half a day in the Senateto get it through, but I did not see an uprising in the streets of France. I am sure that the French referendum had as much to do with the disquiet and the problems in the streets and arrondissements of Paris as it had to do with the constitution itself.
	I would like to suggest that people should take the trouble of reading our Committee's reports. They have been quoted bit by bit, piece by piecebut not line by line in the sense of every line, just the line that people like. We expressed our concerns on many issues in our reports. I am not claiming that this is a perfect deal for the UK. It amounts to a hard-won alteration to the conditions that we will have to apply when the Lisbon treaty comes into force, but we have to accept that that is what negotiations are about. How the negotiation took place is a mystery, and we said that. We said that the process
	could not have been better designed to marginalise the role of national parliaments and to curtail public debate, until it has become too late for such a debate to have any effect on the agreements which they have reached.
	That was in our 3rd report of Session 2007-08, paragraph 8, page 5. It is true. It was a mysterious process, but it did come up with a number of important decisions that safeguarded the UK and, indeed, other countries, on common security and foreign policy, on defence, on tax, on social security and so forth. We were leading that argument, by whatever means it was going on. In the final intergovernmental conference, we obviously came out with something different and better than what had been proposed before in the treaty for a constitution. We had some doubts about it and we put them on the record.
	Let me refer to the paragraphs in our reports. I will not read them out, as we do not have enough time, but I will mention the paragraphs where we expressed a doubt paragraph 6 on page 7; paragraph 21, page 8; paragraph 24, page 8 and paragraph 25, page 9. We went on to express further doubt about other elements of the same treaty. That will not surprise the Minister, who has heard all those doubts argued. In paragraph 60, we said:
	We were less concerned by the provision relating to measures which build on the so-called Schengen aquis.
	On that, we added that
	the UK needed to establish an 'absolute right' to choose whether to participate in Schengen building measures.
	It did, in protocol 10 to article 10, which gave us an opt-in or opt-out decision every time that an advance along the Schengen lines is proposed, which obviously concerns the right hon. Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Mr. Lilley). We expressed further concerns in paragraph 64 on page 18 and paragraph 67 on page 19 and we drew our conclusions on page 20. In paragraph 72, we stated:
	We remain concerned that the provisions on the role of national parliaments are still cast in terms in which a legal obligation can be inferred.
	People may remember that we would have preferred may rather than shall; we had to argue again and again about what the direction to participate will mean. Paragraph 74 states:
	We draw attention to the provisions relating to the 'opt-in' on amendments to existing EU measures, where we consider a stronger position could have been achieved.
	Paragraph 75 states:
	We are concerned that the interpretation of the red line to 'protect UK civil and criminal justice' as only requiring control of the decision to opt in or not does recognise the loss of protection that will occur every time jurisdiction is transferred from UK courts to jurisdiction by the European Court of Justice and the Commission.
	So, we had many concerns, but we have many more reasons for offering support.
	Throughout the debates, I have read into the record parts of the actual treatyin particular, the consolidated treaty numbers and what they saybecause I believe that there are many reasons to support them. My right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester, West (Ms Hewitt) spoke of some of those. My right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester, East (Keith Vaz) spoke fluently and in a reasoned way, and my right hon. Friend the Member for Rotherham (Mr. MacShane) also gave lucid reasons for positive support.
	The economic and social balance has been switched back slightly towards the social and away from the problem that people have with unabated free market economics. On human rights, the charter of fundamental rights has been opposed. I cannot understand how anyone can oppose what is in it, because most of it is in our own Human Rights Act 1998. That is the way it should be, but we seem to have got upset in a way that makes no sense to me. What is wrong with having human rights throughout the whole of Europe?
	The rights of children throughout Europe are in the treaty for the first time, which is very positive. The rights of the elderlyintergenerational solidarityare in the treaty. There are employment laws and rightsnot just in the charter of fundamental rights, but in the treaty. The protocol on services of general interest will protect not only the ferries to the islands of Scotland, but many social services, if they are designed specifically for the needs of the people for whom they are provided. There are links, on the basis of economic and social welfare, to education and skills, and an education White Paper is being considered in Europe at the moment. None of that is compulsory; it is advisory and it is good practice. That is how we should try to transfer good practice across the EU.
	On intergenerational solidarity, I recommend that people get hold of the report and read it. The analysis is that, by 2030, there will be 30 million fewer people of employment ageof work force agein the EU. We have to face up to that and think about how we can extend people's work life and make work life more accessiblefor example, perhaps for those with disabilities. We must also consider how to draw into Europe people who can give us the work force that we require.
	The ongoing processes on climate change, energy use and energy generation can be done only on a European level. There is no way they can be done country by country any more. We have to think seriously about how we deal with those matters. The latest book by Professor James Lovelock, The Revenge of Gaia, says that we are already over the tipping point and heading beyond 400 parts per million of CO2 in the atmosphereheading for 600, which would mean parts of London being under water. A lot of south-east Asia will be under water if we do not do something about that.
	I think that the EU did not try to direct; it fudged the issue. It did not say what it should have said about the need for different types of energy. It said, We want more renewables. There was a kind of wish list, which said, We're going to have 15 per cent. renewables; that's our target. But how do we get there? The EU is afraid to say some important things. The one I think that it needs to say is that nuclear, with reprocessing using mixed oxideor MOXfuel, is a renewable resource, as well as any other.
	What is the bogeyman in all this? I am sorry that the hon. Member for Stone (Mr. Cash) has gone. The bogeyman is what we frighten people with in Scotland.

John Robertson: Sounds like the SNP.

Michael Connarty: For some people, the SNP is the bogeyman, but not for others. The European Court of Justicethat is the bogeyman, an organisation that is going to come along and somehow do bad things in the name of justice. Because it is European justice is it bad? Is that the equation? If it is British justice, is it all right? Go and ask people how we treated them within our empire. Ask people now, who are denied justicefor example, children are locked up in Dungavel in Scotland and in other places. That is British justice. British justice is opted out of the UN convention on the rights of the child so that we can lock up asylum seekers' children. That is British justice.
	The EU, I hope, will come along and say that that is not acceptable, and that we cannot do it. In fact, the latest Commission report says that we are in breach of the rights of the child across Europe, so we have to think about whether our justice system is better than any other.
	What is wrong with justice? Two weeks ago, I spoke with Professor Sir David Edward, who, being an ECJ judge, is a leading figure in jurisprudence in Scotland. Nothing that he said about justice, his view of justice and Europe's view of justice made me afraid of this organisation, the ECJ. The idea of justice is for everyone within the EU. That is what we can contribute. Why should positive parts of the UK's perception of justice, as put forward earlier, not be available to everyone throughout the EU? Why should it not be available to an enlarged EU, which we have at the moment, or to Turkey, Croatia or any other country that wants to come and join us? I do not think that there is anything wrong with that.
	I want to finish on the power of the European Parliament. Look at the article 289 of the consolidated treaty:
	The ordinary legislative procedure shall consist in the joint adoption by the European Parliament and the Council of a regulation, directive or decision on a proposal from the Commission.
	The European Parliament and the Council are involved. The European Parliament is a democratic organisation. If it is not good enough for purpose, make it better. That is our job as parliamentarians and as citizens. The article goes on to say in paragraph 4:
	In the specific cases provided for by the Treaties, legislative acts may be adopted on the initiative of a group of Member States or of the European Parliament.
	So, it gives elements of the generation of law not just to the Commission, but to member states. If we think something should be done as a collective, we should be able to put that suggestion forward, take it to the Council and the European Parliament, and bring it in as legislation. Not only the Commission is involved, so that is an advance on the idea of the plutocrats running everything.
	I want the House to pass the Bill and implement the treaty. I want the people of the UK to participate through this Parliament and through their representatives in the Scottish Parliament, the Welsh Assembly and the Northern Ireland Assembly. I want them to participate in any other way that they can. That is not a one-way system; I see it as a resolution of forces.
	There is a new forcethe European Parliament. The Commission, the Council, the European Parliament, the devolved Parliaments and the Parliament of the United Kingdom are all involved, as are all the other Parliaments of Europe, and there is a resolution of political forces for us to work on. That is what the treaty gives us the chance to do. It is for our constituents, for the future of Europe and for the families that we represent.

Sammy Wilson: I imagine that at the end of tonight's debate I will probably be on the losing side after going through the Lobby with those who, as has been the case many times during these debates, find themselves on the right side of the argument but on the wrong side of the vote. That is sad. I believe that the vote this Parliament took last week on the referendum, and that which I suspect will be taken tonight on the treaty itself, will do irreparable damage to our own image, the powers of this Parliament and our country.
	It is clear that there is a distance between a large number of Members of this Parliament and the electorate, to whom Members promised there would be a referendum when this constitution was finally arranged. I know that many arguments have been made to the effect that this is not a constitution, but simply a treaty. However, as late as June last year, when the negotiations had been going on for some timeI suspect that the Government were aware of what was likely to be agreed and what was notthe Prime Minister was still saying:
	The manifesto is what we put to the public. We've got to honour that manifesto. That is an issue of trust for me with the electorate.
	Even in the middle of the negotiations, the Prime Minister was still saying that the manifesto pledge was a matter of trust with the electorate, yet that has now been broken.
	I have listened to the arguments that have been made over the days of debate, and again today. The right hon. Member for Rotherham (Mr. MacShane) and the hon. Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk (Michael Connarty) were telling us that we had nothing to worry about because this was not a constitution. Indeed, as the hon. Gentleman said, let us see what the Dutch, the French and the Danish have said about this, but they, of course, have an interest in playing down the constitutional aspect of the document because they have populations that have made it clear that they will not tolerate a constitution.
	Two of those countries have voted against it. Twelve of the other countries have no axe to grindthey have not had a referendumand seem to have no great concerns about whether it is a constitutional treaty. I am not going to put their views on the record again, because over the weeks of debate on this subject, hon. Members have put on the record what all of those other 12 countries, the original author of the constitution, the European Parliament and the European Commission have said. They are all on the record as saying, This is a constitution. This is the same as the document that we negotiated previously, with very little difference.
	The second argument is that the treaty does not represent a massive transfer of powerbut let me mention some of the ways in which there is a transfer of power: the setting up of new EU institutions; the weakening of the UK power to block legislation; the reduction of national vetoes on votes in Europe; the new EU powers on health, social security and trade policy; and a legal toolbox for further changes, which is perhaps the most damaging aspect, because there can be more changes without us considering them in this form again.
	We are told, and many hon. Members have put it on the record again, that the sort of language used in the document has been chosen because it is important for the content and the real intent to be hidden in some way. The Prime Minister of Luxembourg said:
	Britain is different. Of course there will be a transfer of sovereignty
	it does not matter what is said here; those who do not want to highlight the transfer of sovereignty will try to hide it
	But would I be intelligent to draw the attention of public opinion to the fact?
	Of course he would not, not when there is a sceptical public in the United Kingdom.
	The other reason suggested for why the arguments against the treaty should not be listened to is that we are scaremongering. It is difficult to take lectures about scaremongering when hon. Members imply that if we do not keep faith with the EU and the treaty we will be pushed back into a world war: apparently we will be at Germany's throat, we will be fighting the French, or we will be after the Spanish. The hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr. Davey) implied that if we do not vote for the Bill, somehow or other paedophiles will run free around Europe, guns will be all over the place, and we will not even get a European spaceship.

Jeffrey M Donaldson: Some of them should be on it.

Sammy Wilson: Maybe they should. Space would be a good place to send them.
	Let me consider just two of the so-called scare stories that have been put around. One is that the powers of the EU institutions have been exaggerated. The amazing thing is that we only have to ask the following question: if we have nothing to worry about from the setting up of an EU institution with a president, a Foreign Minister and a diplomatic corps, why did the Government oppose it in the first place?

Michael Connarty: The hon. Gentleman makes me think of the saying, You put a straw man up to knock it down. If he says that there is a president, but there is not, he can then talk about a president. If he says that there is a Foreign Secretary, but there is not, he can then talk about a Foreign Secretary. There is no president; there is a President of the Council. There is no Foreign Secretary. Why mythologise?

Sammy Wilson: The hon. Gentleman can use whatever name he wants for the Foreign Minister, the president and the diplomatic corps, but they still exist. Let me quote the Foreign Affairs Committee. It has a Labour majority, and the Labour Government are trying to sell us the idea that there is nothing to worry about. The FAC says that
	the Government risks underestimating, and certainly is downplaying in public, the importance and potential of the new foreign policy institutions established by the Lisbon Treaty, namely the new High Representative
	I do not care what the person is called; he is a Foreign Minister
	and the European External Action Service
	the European diplomatic service.
	We recommend that the Government should publicly acknowledge the significance of the foreign policy aspects of the Lisbon Treaty.
	Even a Labour-dominated Committee of this House was prepared to accept that there is something in the treaty that the Government had said they did not want, but which they had got. The Government then said, It doesn't matter because we're not really concerned about it, and told us that we were scaremongering.

Rob Marris: I think that the high representative and so on are significant. They are a great advantage to the UK because they give us leverage. We can either stand alone, as we could for years as the UK, or we can stand with 26 other member states. It depends on the issue. Foreign policy in the EU is decided by unanimity. It is an each-way bet. Either we stand alone if we cannot agree with the other member states, or we can agree with them and have more leverage and more power in the world. The hon. Gentleman and the Committee are right: that is significantit is of significant benefit to the UK.

Sammy Wilson: Here is the other myth that is being spread aroundthat all the decisions will be made on a basis of unanimity. There are 11 areas in which a qualified majority vote will be sufficient. Indeed, the very leverage to which the hon. Gentleman refers has been severely weakened.
	Let me take another example, which was given by the Foreign Secretary. On the environment, he said that a scare story was going around that the EU, at a time of crisis, would redirect gas and so on from the UK to other parts of the EU. New article 122 states:
	Without prejudice to any other procedures provided for in the Treaties, the Council, on a proposal from the Commission, may decide, in a spirit of solidarity between Member States, upon the measures appropriate to the economic situation, in particular if severe difficulties arise in the supply of certain products, notably in the area of energy.
	To me, that leaves open the possibility of redirecting energy around the EU in severe situations.

Rob Marris: The hon. Gentleman read out paragraph 1 of the article. Paragraph 2 says:
	Where a Member State is in difficulties or is seriously threatened with severe difficulties caused by natural disasters or exceptional occurrences beyond its control, the Council, on a proposal from the Commission, may grant, under certain conditions, Union financial assistance to the Member State concerned. The President of the Council shall inform the European Parliament of the decision taken.
	It specifically says financial assistance. It does not talk about commandeering supplies. He has to read both bits.

Sammy Wilson: The other term that the hon. Gentleman ignores is measures appropriate. Had it been simply financial measures, it would specify financial measures, but it does not. It is ambiguous.
	One of the first times that I was politically involved in something was around the time of the referendum on entering the EU and the renegotiations. At that time, people were accused of scaremongering when they said that when we gave fishing policy over to the EU, it could devastate the local fishing industry. We were told that the ambiguous wording in the treaty was being misinterpreted. We now have a devastated fishing industry.

Angus Robertson: The hon. Gentleman is making a powerful case about fishing. Will he confirm that there are communities in Northern Irelandas there are in Scotland and in Englandwhose fishing industries have been devastated by the common fisheries policy, in contrast to those in Norway, Iceland and the Faroe Islands, which are not subject to the common fisheries policy? For those who care about the future of Northern Ireland and Scotland, that should be reason enough to vote against the treaty tonight.

Sammy Wilson: I do not mind why the hon. Gentleman votes against the treaty. I know that parts of it find favour with him, but if that is the reason compelling the Scottish Nationalists to vote against it, I agree with him.
	When membership of the EU was being negotiated, we were told that we were misreading the terms of the treaty, and that what we feared could not possibly happen. Now we have seas that are plundered, villages that are destroyed and industry that is wrecked. What we were told could not come true has come true. As for what are now being described as scaremongering stories, I believe that at some point in the future we will look back and regret that we did not listen to the voice of reason in the House.

Michael Connarty: The hon. Gentleman will recallalthough he must have been very young then, because he seems very young nowthat it was the Conservative party that sold that line. The Labour party's official position at the time was to oppose the treaty, although I voted for it in 1975. Does the hon. Gentleman's party oppose membership of the European Union? His argument suggests that it does.

Sammy Wilson: I do not really care which party tried to sell that line. It was the wrong line, and one that we have come to regret. What is so sad is that subsequent Governments have not sought to do anything about it. As other Members have pointed out, once we enter into arrangements such as this they are almost impossible to reverse. It is no use arguing that they were wrong at the outset and would prove devastating, because it is not possible to change them. That is why I find it sad that we have not given this Bill proper scrutiny. We are walking into something that will be irreversible.
	Conservative Front Benchers have been told, If you don't go along with this, no one will negotiate a different treaty with you. No one will talk to you. Indeed, I think that one argument was, There will be no one to talk to. We have had some experience of that in Northern Ireland. We opposed an agreement between the Irish Government, the British Government, the American Government, all the parties in the Irish Republic, all the parties in the House of Commons and all the parties in Northern Ireland. We had been told Don't even think of opposing it; no one will talk to you, let alone renegotiate the agreement. We did not believe that, and the agreement was renegotiated. Safeguards that had not been inserted in the first place were inserted. The people who had said that it would never be possible to persuade Sinn Fein to accept the police and give up their guns were proved wrong. Now I say to Conservative Front Benchers, Don't listen to that kind of nonsense.
	It should not be forgotten that we are valuable members of the European Union. The other members of the EU benefit from us as much as we benefit from them, and sometimes more when it comes to trade, the transfer of money and a host of other matters. If there is a change of Governmentas I hope there soon will beand the British people speak, saying that they do not like the terms of this treaty, there will be a chance of renegotiation. I do not think that Members should go limply through the Lobby to vote for the treaty simply because they have been told there is no alternative.
	The votes that have taken place so far have brought great sadness. Some powerful speeches have been made tonight about the erosion of the powers of this Parliament, about the increasing influence of Europe that will result from the treaty, and about the impact that that is likely to have on the lives of ordinary people here in the United Kingdom. I hope that Members will see the light between now and a quarter to 10, although I doubt it. Of course, it is not always a case of seeing the light; sometimes it is simply a case of Members managing to remove the Whips' arms from their throats. If that does not happen, however, at least those of us who stood on the basis of a manifesto commitment to put this to the British people in a referendumto give them the right to have their saycan walk through the Lobbies tonight with our heads held high, and oppose the Third Reading of this Bill.

Barry Sheerman: I rise with some trepidation. Many Members here are veterans of this important debate, having been present for every day of it, and passions run very high. I hope that I shall resist the urge to become too passionateor, indeed, as discourteous as some speakers on both sides of the House have been, although I understand that that is because they feel so strongly about the issue.
	I am speaking tonight because I experienced a sense of guilt. I have been in the House for a long time. I arrived at the same time as my old friend the hon. Member for Aldridge-Brownhills (Mr. Shepherd), who was at the London School of Economics with me. We have always disagreed about Europe, but one day recently he chided me: You have been in this place for a long time, but you are not even going to speak on the European issue. He also teased me because I had popped into the Chamber and made a couple of interventions, which he said did not constitute a serious contribution.
	Last week I sat through six and a half hours of debate in the hope of being called. The Bill was in Committee, and as you will remember, Mr. Deputy Speaker, you were in the Chair. I was not called, but I must say that it was a great educational experience, although it was a bit like entering a rather exclusive cluba club that not many people can join because its members have been together for so long, are familiar with each other's nuances and know who will say what, and bounce off each other in a very interesting way. It took me back to the days when I was, I suppose, something of an academic sociologist

Rob Marris: Stockholm syndrome!

Barry Sheerman: Indeedbut I found myself observing the way in which the various speakers in the debate reacted to each other's contributions.
	I shall vote for the Bill tonight. I must confessthis is a confessional, is it not, for Members who have been around as long as I have?that I originally voted against Europe in that referendum when we had a choice. It was a long time ago, when I was a callow youth, a young university teacher, and I got it wrong. The more experience I have had of politics, of being a politician and of being in this place, the more embarrassed I have felt about the fact that I got it wrong on that occasion. However, I have never liked referendums. I know that they have been described as a creature of Napoleon, but I believe that if we refer to antiquity we will find that certain Roman emperors used a form of referendum to get their own way, and I know that the Italians used them under Mussolini.
	In the Labour party, I blame Tony Benn. I had the room next to him in the House at one stage and I got on with him extremely well personally, but I never liked his politics, and his recounting of history through his diaries showed a world that I did not recognise and do not remember. I think that one of the great disservices that he did the Labour party was when he persuaded Harold Wilson, at a time when Harold Wilson was vulnerable to what was happening on the left of the party, into thinking that a referendum was the answer.
	During these debates I have heard many people say that it is all about expediency, but we, as parliamentarians, are politicians, and there have been times when I have seen all parties acting in a politically expedient way. The official Opposition might be doing that at present. I listened intently to the speeches on Second Reading and I was impressed by the right hon. Member for Richmond, Yorks (Mr. Hague). He is the best entertainer and performer in the House at present; he is an outstanding debater. However, when I subsequently read the Second Reading speeches, and thought about them and took out the humour, I found that there was not much substance to tell me what his position was on Europe.
	From listening to or reading the contributions of the hon. Members for Stone (Mr. Cash) and for Aldridge-Brownhills and their group, I know precisely where they are coming from and what they believe; they articulate it passionately, although not always politely. I also know the position of the right hon. and learned Member for Rushcliffe (Mr. Clarke) and that little group around him that represent that strong and remarkable tradition in his party of being both liberal-minded Conservatives and pro-European. I do not say this to make a political point, but I share some of their concerns that something is going on in the modern Conservative party and that prospective members who hold similar views to those of the right hon. and learned Gentleman are being screened out from standing for winnable constituencies. I do not know whether that is because of the influence of some noble Lord, or whether there has been a worrying shift in Conservative party politics, but that sort of Conservative is being eliminated from the parliamentary party. As has been mentioned, very few of the younger generation of Members have made pro-European speeches.
	Let me get to the nub of why I shall support the Bill. I must confess that I get fed up with Europe. I get irritated by the messiness and clumsiness of it, and I hate some of the effects of the former treaties. For instance, I do not like the fact that we have a voting system under which we do not really know who our MEPs are. Under the old system, we knew exactly

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I want to encourage the hon. Gentleman to talk about the Bill. This is a Third Reading debate and he should be talking about the Bill's contents.

Barry Sheerman: I was merely seeking to prove my credentials for voting for Third Reading by showing that I am not a pushover in any way. I was trying to say that, as areasonablyobjective person, I do not like many aspects of drift in Europe and also some elements of this treaty. In political life we must judge things in the round, however. There are things we agree with, and other things we disagree with, and overall this treaty recommends itself to me and to my colleagues, and I believe that there will be a majority in favour of Third Reading in the House tonight.
	That does not mean that there are not elements of the treaty that could be forensically studied and on which I would have misgivings. I think that all Members would agree with that, if we were honest. We do not agree with 100 per cent. of anything; I certainly do not. As I have said, I also thought that way about Maastricht, and certainly about the new voting arrangements under which we do not know who our regional MEPs are because they do not have a defined constituency. I have never liked that. Looking to the future, I do not unreservedly welcome the possibility of Turkey joining the EU. That makes my position slightly different from that of those who say that the entire treaty is right; I think that the majority of it is right.
	I have not been present for all the debates, but although I understand their position I am not convinced by the arguments that I have heard from articulate Members from both sides of the Housewho have voted against the Bill in Committeethat the treaty is the same as the constitution. One reason I shall be voting in favour of Third reading is that the treaty is fundamentally different from the constitution. I share the view on why Valry Giscard d'Estaing said what he said; it made me very angry when during a long debate that I attended yet another speaker stood up to quote Valry Giscard d'Estaing.
	One reason I like the treatyand prefer it to the constitutionis that it builds incrementally on other treaties. The hon. Member for Aldridge-Brownhills talked about English common law being built up over centuries. Europe is new, and we are building its measures up in a way that is parallel to the building up of English common law. We have had a series of treaties, and I like that process; one of the reasons I shall vote in favour of Third Reading is that the treaty builds incrementally.
	I was a Member of this House at the time of debate on the Maastricht treaty, and I voted on it, as you did, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I remember all the arguments then, saying how wicked and iniquitous it was to have a guillotine. Members used to say that Mrs.now BaronessThatcher was wicked to introduce guillotines on such important matters and that that was the end of parliamentary democracy as we knew it; and we have heard the same arguments again over the past weeks. However, we must see such steps in the context of Governments having to get their business through. They will get their business done; I am afraid that that is the nature of this place. However, it must be said that Lisbon is a much less significant treaty than Maastricht; that was the big hurdle.
	The Lisbon treaty is better than the original constitution. The constitution would have wiped out all the previous treaties and started again. I did not like that; I did not think it was necessary. As a politician, I preferred an accretion of effortbuilding on the last thing that we had constructed and modifying it and changing the bits that have not worked or that we did not like. I do not like the common agricultural policy and what it has done to our agriculture, and I do not like aspects of the common fisheries policy, but I do like other bits of the treaties.
	Let me explain why I shall go home tonight content about voting for Third Reading. My generation was born during the dark period when this House was being bombed by German aircraft. We can remember the second world war; I was born towards the end of it, but I can remember what Europe did to itself then. I think what a wonderful life I have had and what a wonderful life my children and grandchildren will have bearing in mind certain ghastly things in English history. There are wonderful things about English history, but for goodness' sake there have been wars after wars. The Napoleonic wars were followed by more wars and then by the first world war. The war that brought more of my generation into politics than any other was the first world war, because we thought that it should never happen again. One can read about the history of the first world war and the disgraceful decisions taken by politicians of every party across Europe that made that war happen and made millions of young men die in the trenches. Like many people of my generation, I came into politics to build a country and a Europe where that would never happen again.
	I have gone on about this in my interventions, but I believe that this treaty builds on the things that we have secured over the years since we became part of the European Uniona European group of nations. This treaty will help to secure the maintenance of peace and prosperity. Let us not underestimate this country's enormous prosperity. Although it brings all sorts of problems, it also brings something that one finds in the American constitution, but not in oursthe pursuit of happiness. I believe that we come into politics so that the peoplethe people in Huddersfield whom I represent and the people whom we all representcan have the freedom that they want to pursue the good life and happiness.
	People have said that we do not have a written constitution. We do not have it in one document, but we have lots of bits of our written constitution and they are all important. They are not tidy or joined up, but they exist and I do not believe that this treaty contravenes them. It becomes part of this great synthesis as we progressand not just as an old-fashioned nation state that thought it could do anything
	I hope that when people talk about the nation state they look back at what the nation state brought usthe horrific periods of our experience as a nationand what it meant, perhaps not for the ruling classes that run the country but for the poor bloody infantry that fought the wars, dug the ditches and did all the ghastly things that happened [Interruption] They should also look back on slavery and the dreadful things done in the name of the nation state.
	This exclusive club and company has been discussing the treaty for so many days and I feel honoured to have had the opportunity to put some things on the record. I am not passionate enough to condemn people for their positionsI understand where they come from and my position comes slightly from the outside. This Third Reading and this treaty deserve my support and that of all sensible, good-thinking Members of this House.

David Heathcoat-Amory: The hon. Member for Huddersfield (Mr. Sheerman) hardly gave a ringing endorsement of the treaty. He said that it contained parts he did not like, but that on balance he would vote for it. That is an indictment of a treaty that should be at the end of a reform process. Europe should by now have addressed the widely shared concerns about its procedures and policies. It is worth reminding ourselves that the treaty was conceived seven years agoit had a long gestation periodand was launched in the Laeken declaration of 2001, in which the Heads of Government who were meeting in that Belgian town called for Europe to reform itself and described Europe as being undemocratic, complicated and remote.
	The Lisbon treaty is the result of a failed reform process. It is obviously a failure. It runs to nearly 300 pages of appalling Eurojargon, so it is completely inaccessible to the ordinary voter. It is designed to be so, because the people behind it knew that the more complicated they made it, the less likely it was that people would be asked to vote on it. That was admitted by one of the vice-presidents of the Convention on the Future of Europe, Mr. Amato, who conceded that if it was designed to be a popular document, it might be put to a popular voteand they would never risk that.
	This reform process has been a failure, because it makes Europe more remote. The very institutions that caused much of the grief have been given more powers. The decisions will be made by more powerful institutions more remote from the ordinary citizen. That not only ignores the instruction given in the Laeken declaration that Europe should be moved closer to the citizen; it defies and contradicts it. How can we do that when decisions on a range of new policy matters are to be taken not in the national Parliaments but in the most remote tier of governmentthe European Union? It is not surprising that this document, or one very much like it, was rejected by the French and Dutch electorates. The problem with the European Union is that no is taken to mean yes.
	Another myth is that without the treaty, paralysis would result. We have been told that. It has been said in the debate that the treaty is needed to govern a Europe of 27 countries. I was told during the Convention on the Future of Europe that the constitutional treaty was necessary for enlargement. Indeed, Ministers told me that if I was against the constitutional treaty, I was therefore against enlargement. In the same way, we are now told that if we are against spending more money on the European budgetour contributions will soon go up to 6 billion a yearwe are against enlargement. However, enlargement happened as a result of the Convention on the Future of Europe. Another 10 countries joined, and another two have joined since, and there has been no paralysis.
	I ask any hon. Member who believes that there has been paralysis to spend half an hour attending at least part of the European Scrutiny Committee's weekly meeting. They can now do that because, in a radical new procedure, hon. Members can actually attend at least part of a Committee of their own House. They will see a torrent of legislation from Brussels. More than 1,000 new instruments a year are being examined. There has been no paralysis even under the existing treaties, so it is a complete Euromyth that we need a new treaty for a Europe of 27 countries.
	When the original constitutional treaty was decisively rejected, Europe reverted to its old, familiar method of secrecy. All the negotiations that took place last year to revive the treaty were in secret, and there was only a 48-hour gap between its publication and its agreement at the European Council meeting in Brussels in June. We were told in the run-up to the treaty's publication that the public had to be involved and that parliamentary scrutiny was essential. The need for openness and transparency and the public's right to know were reasserted in a series of conclusions from successive European Councils. They did not mean it, and those things did not happen. It all took place in secret. The public were not supposed to know what was going on or to scrutinise what happened in those negotiations.
	The result is a treaty that, in all material respects, is the same as the failed constitutional treaty. The hon. Member for Huddersfield said that the treaty was different because it differed in form. He said that instead of abolishing the existing treaties, it would amend them. I judge treaties and constitutions by their substanceby what is in them and by their legal effect. The hon. Gentleman ignored the clear conclusion of two Select Committees that, in all material respects, the two documents were similar, if not the same. We have a treaty that is the same in substance as the constitutional treaty. I see the hon. Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk (Michael Connarty), the Chairman of my Committee, shaking his head, but I remind him of the Committee's conclusion:
	Taken as a whole, the Reform Treaty produces a general framework which is substantially equivalent to the Constitutional Treaty.
	The Foreign Affairs Committee said:
	We conclude that there is no material difference between the provisions on foreign affairs in the Constitutional Treaty which the Government made subject to approval in a referendum and those in the Lisbon Treaty on which a referendum is being denied.
	Two Select Committees with Labour Chairmen and Labour majorities unanimously concluded that the documents are the same in substance.
	Of course, it is true that the Government did not want the treaty. I listened to day after day of speeches and amendments during the Convention on the Future of Europe. The Government representative tabled 295 amendments in total, which I have in my hand. The Government have refused to publish that list. It is very difficult to get hold of itone has to trawl through European websites and separate out all the amendments tabled by the other 105 delegates to the Convention, but we have done that and there were 295. Of those, 33 were accepted on such epic matters as changing common market to internal market and changing the reference to member states' internal law to read national law. On matters of trivia, the Government tended to win, but on substantive matters they lost time and again. The Government are defending a treaty that they did not want. They certainly did not want the substance of it.
	The treaty is indisputably constitutional in character. It provides for a division of powers and does so on terms that are entirely favourable to the EU. I agree with what the hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) said in his powerful speech about the irreversibility of the process. Once we give away those powers, we will never get them back. British history is a long struggle to get powers under the control of those who are accountable to the people. Many wars have been fought to achieve that, and here we are giving those powers away in a treaty. It defies belief that a free Parliament should do that without losing a war.
	The treaty explicitly asserts the supremacy of EU law. That cannot be found in the existing treaties. This treaty repeats and writes down the self-interested case law of the European Court of Justice. It is a major advance for the ECJ to have in a treaty what it has up to now only asserted in its own case law.
	The treaty also creates a self-amending procedure through the so-called ratchet or passerelle clauses so that in future it can transfer more powers away from national Parliaments and member states up to the EU without the need for the traditional intergovernmental conference, parliamentary legislation or referendums. Those at the top of the EU in Brussels have decided that they will never again ask the people what they think. They have dismissed the people and given those powers to themselves.
	The treaty creates a Union that is all-powerful but politically weak. It is a hollow institution because it lacks popular allegiance and legitimacy. The reason for that is fundamental. Europe is not a single political entity on which democracy can operate. There is no European public opinion, as such. There is no single European electorate and no language of Europe. There is no shared political experience. In short, there is no demos on which democracy can operate. People obstinately identify with their own country where voting is concerned. Of course, we can build upwards on that: if we have a vibrant national democracy in Europe, we can co-operate on that solid foundation to tackle common problems.
	We on the Conservative Benches are the internationalists. We believe in countries, Governments and people getting together to tackle common scourges and the problems of the world, but the process must be built on a solid foundation: it must arise from below, whereas the EU method is top-down. The EU wants to be the dominant law-maker and we have to accept it. That has happened despite all the effort and money spent on trying to create a European political identity.
	The failure to do so is shown by the fact that the loss of democracy at national level, hollowed out by the relentless upward transfer of powers, is not being replaced by democracy at European Union level. The attitude of voters towards the European Parliament, which frequently boasts that it is the repository of the democratic impulse in Europe, shows that the reverse is happening. The Parliament has demanded and been given more powers in every treaty. It says, Give us the powers and people will see that we are important. They'll come out to vote and we shall express the popular will of the peoples of Europe. It has not happened. In 1979, an average of 69 per cent. of the EU electorate voted in the first European election. In the next election, the figure dropped to 65 per cent. and thereafter to 64, 58 and 53 per cent. In the most recent European Parliament election, the percentage of the people of Europe who voted dropped to 48 per cent.
	The electorate either say no in referendums or We couldn't care less in elections. They certainly never regard themselves as democratically represented, in any real sense of the word, in the European Parliament. In the treaty, we are suppressing democracy at national level without replacing it at EU level. The democratic deficit, which is already yawning, is set to grow worse.
	The treaty does something else, and it does it specifically to the UK. It locks us into a continental system that is in defiance of our historical experience, outlook and pattern of trade. The UK is of course in part a European continental country; we are anchored offshore but we are geographically part of Europe. That is a magnetic force that operates on us, and much of our history has been bound up with what happened elsewhere in Europe, but we are more than that. We are what General de Gaulle called a maritime country. That other magnetic field operating on us is a result of our historical experience as part of the Commonwealth, part of the English-speaking worldsometimes called the Anglosphereand part of areas of the world that are showing greater dynamism and higher economic growth.
	The treaty tries to switch off that maritime global magnetic field and suck us irreversibly into a continental destiny. That is doing grave damage not only to us but to people all over the world to whom we have responsibilities. Like many Members, I am interested in development policy, in helping the poorest people of the world through aid and trade, but the process is hindered, not helped, by the fact that we have no trade policy. There is much to do with aid in the treaty, which states that aid is to be made part of the foreign policy of the EU. However, the provision that until now explicitly required the EU to give most of its attention to the most deprived is removed from the treaty. Rather than gaining power to help the poorest in the world, we are losing it.
	African countries that want to trade with the UK have to go in supplication not to us, because we no longer have a trade Department, but to the European Union with its protectionist attitudes. It is a disgrace that the world's fifth biggest economy cannot set its own trade policy even when we want to help the poorest people in the poorest countries.
	As I have said, the treaty is not reforming; it is constitutional. Although it is complex, it can be reduced to a simple fact: it is about transferring powers from those whom people have elected and can get rid of, to those whom they have not elected and cannot get rid of. Our global role is our strength, but we are being forced to choose a low-growth continental system that is old-fashioned, centralised and regulatory.
	There is only one final conclusion: regardless of whether I am right or wrong, it must not be me, or the House, that makes the final decision, because ultimately it is not our powers that we are dealing with, but those of the people who send us here. I am not one for regular or continuous referendums, as I believe in a representative democracy, but when the rules of the game are altered, and big decisions are made about who governs us and where we are governed from they must be made not by politicians but by the people. The rules are now altering. We are exporting powers of unprecedented scope on an unprecedented scale. That is why all of us must keep our promise to ask the people what they think in a national referendum.

Several hon. Members: rose

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. There is limited time before the wind-ups, and there are five hon. Members seeking to catch my eye. I shall have some regard to whether hon. Members have been here for the entire debate.

Peter Lilley: For me, the key issue raised by the Bill is not Europe, but integrity. I took part in the debates because I was shocked at the suggestion that Members should betray the pledge and promise that they made to their electors in their manifesto, and I wanted to know what they had to hide. I moved from shock to concern, and then to anger and shame. I have never been so ashamed of this place as when I saw 300 Members of Parliament betray a pledge on which they were elected.
	The pledge for a referendum may have been unwise, unnecessary, or unmerited by the substance of the treaty. The proposed referendum may have been on the wrong question. However, the pledge was given, and I am old-fashioned enough to believe that when one makes a pledge, one should keep it. Comparisons between the Lisbon treaty on the one hand, and the treaties of Nice, Amsterdam and Maastricht and the Single European Act on the other, are irrelevant. The only comparison that matters is that between the European reform treaty before us and the constitutional treaty in respect of which the pledge for a referendum was given.
	The author of the constitution says that the constitutional treaty is substantially the same as the Lisbon treaty, but we are told that we must not believe him. The Chancellor of Germany, Mrs. Merkel, says:
	The substance of the constitution is preserved. That is a fact.
	We are told that we must not believe her. The Prime Ministers of Spain, Belgium and Ireland say as much, but apparently they are lying, too. Ministers of Denmark, Italy and the Czech Republic have said the same, but Members on the Government Front Bench tell us that they are not to be believed. How the Government get on with their partners in Europe I do not know. Lithuania, Slovenia and other countries have said the same, too; all of them are apparently not to be trusted. We are to hand power to them, but we are not to believe them.
	I prefer to believe those who have no particular reason to lie than those who have every reason to mislead. Even the European Parliament passed a motion that
	welcomes the fact that the mandate safeguards the substance of the Constitutional Treaty.
	The European Commission, which the right hon. Member for Leicester, West (Ms Hewitt) hopes to joinshe gave us her job application earlier todaysaid that the treaty was essentially the same as the old constitution. I am not surprised that she is walking out of the Chamber. I understand that she intends to leave this place for another. No one has offered any coherent explanation why all the people, Heads of Government, and institutions that I have mentioned should want to deceive us, so we must assume that they are telling the truth.
	The British voters must put their faith in another place to force this House to think again. The Salisbury convention states that their lordships will not reject legislation implementing a clear manifesto commitment. By the same token, they surely must not accept legislation that fails to implement a clear manifesto pledge. I appeal to their lordships, not least those on the Cross Benches and the Bishops Benches, and to the people of great integrity on the Labour side and on the Lib Dem Benches to think whether it is not their duty to uphold the integrity of Parliament and give this House the chance to think again.
	Those in that House may think the pledge should never have been given. They may think it unnecessary or unwise. That is not the issue. It was given and it was in everybody's manifesto. Surely they should refer it back so that we can at last uphold the promises that we made.
	Referendums apart, is the treaty necessary or desirable? The Government say that it is essential for the smooth working of the EU. That is patently not true. The EU has worked smoothly since the accession four years ago. A study by Sciences Po in Paris shows that the EU is adopting new rules and regulations 25 per cent. more quickly since enlargement than it was before. Rejection would simply leave us with the status quo, and the status quo shows every sign of working perfectly reasonably. Moreover, we would not have to concede further competences to the EU.
	The Government and their Lib Dem lackeys say that rejection would be tantamount to leaving the European Union. If we rejected the treaty, we would be throwing ourselves out. Again, that is patently not true. The French and the Dutch people rejected the constitution, which the Government and the Lib Dems pretend was far more substantial than the treaty, and no one suggested that they should leave the Union. It would simply result in another round of negotiation if our partners in Europe really wanted to push ahead with the treaty.
	We surely would also be able to obtain the concessionsthe very substantial concessions, we are assured by the Government and the Lib Demsthat the French and the Dutch obtained as a result of their rejection of the original constitution. Ministers and a number of hon. Members who have spoken in the debate allege that we on this side of the debatenot on this side of the House, because Members in all parts of the House argue the points that I am makingexaggerate the implications of the treaty and have exaggerated the implications of previous treaties. I wish that were so, but the reverse is true.
	Weincluding Governments of whom I have been a memberalways underestimate the implications of treaties that we agree to, because we can never foresee how the European Court of Justice will interpret a treaty that we pass. All we know from experience is that it will always expand competences more widely than originally anticipated. My own experience confirms that. My first role in Government was as Economic Secretary, and the first thing I had to do was implement a decision of the European Court of Justice that we had to apply VAT to building, electricity, water, homes and spectacles. It was an interpretation of the sixth VAT directive, passed in all good faith by the Labour Government back in the 1970s, which none of us had foreseen would extend VAT into previously zero-rated areas.
	We assured everybody that the zero rates were safe and secure. It was the first time, as I remember telling the House with some relish, the House has ever been required to pass a tax and given no option not to do so since the ship tax introduced by Charles I sparked off the civil war. I am glad to say that the measure did not have the same impact when I introduced it, and I gave my officials instructions that they were to introduce it in such a way as to raise the minimum amount of revenue possible. It was the first time they had ever been told to introduce a tax with that effect.

Theresa Villiers: Does my right hon. Friend agree that one of the main reasons the treaty is such a significant shift in power is the criminal justice provisions? Criminal justice and the coercive power of Government over individual is one of the fundamental hallmarks of statehood, so transferring more power in that area to Brussels is a significant constitutional shift.

Peter Lilley: That is perfectly true. It is one of the areas, but by no means the only one, where we are making further shifts the full extent and implications of which we cannot fully judge at this stage but know from experience will be wider, not narrower, than any interpretation that we can put on them at present.
	How will all this affect the daily lives of our constituents and the ordinary business of their businesses? There will be ever more of the sort of thing that we already see as the result of existing transfers of competences. Some of that is necessary. I supported our entry into Europe and I still support our membershipI simply want reform, not exit. In that respect I seem to be rather different from several Members who opposed original entry because they thought that it went too far but now want to go infinitely furthera position that I find hard to understand.
	People already find it irritating how measure after measure is imposed on them and how they are told, if they ask, that it is because of the European Community. About 20 minutes before this debate, I asked the Library what measures had recently been passed in this House under European legislation. Since last October, there have been some 44 statutory instruments and three primary Acts of Parliament. They covered subjects such as energy and building performance certificates and inspectionsthe famous home information packs, which increase the cost of buying a house. The Government did not want that measureit was imposed on us by a statutory instrument that this House had no opportunity to turn down because it came under the transfer of competences and European law. Other subjects include patents, compulsory licensing and supplementary protection certificates, movement restrictions, foot and mouth disease, reinsurance, and radioactive contaminated land in Northern Ireland. Why only Northern Ireland? I do not know. The list goes on, from animals and animal products, to health and social care profession regulations, to asylum procedures and regulationsan issue where we are going to increase the powers of the European Community. Not a single line, clause or amendment on the provisions involving asylum, border controls and immigration was debated in the House, yet the Government are asking us to accept them.
	Many measures are already being passed, but for some reason there is a conspiracy of silence when they do come through this House. Ministers pretend that what is happening is of their own volition when it is not. They act as ventriloquists' dummies for the legislation and the powers that they have transferred to other places. It is time that we revealed to our constituents what powers have already been transferred and why we do not want to transfer any more.
	The Foreign Secretary ridiculed the idea that the energy measures in the treaty have any substance, but they ensure that security of energy supply in the Union can be voted on by qualified majority voting. The Government say that the right of member states to determine the conditions for exploiting their energy resources requires unanimity. So it does, but that is not the same as the allocation of oil and gas once it has been produced, which remains under qualified majority voting. In other words, if there is a worldwide shortage of oil and gasas happened during the Suez crisis, the OPEC embargo, the Iranian crisis, and on several other occasionswe would be vulnerable to the European Community deciding that oil and gas should be shared fairly across the whole Community. My right hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk, Coastal (Mr. Gummer) said that the process would be reciprocal. Of course it wouldwe would share the oil and gas that we have with others and they would share the oil and gas that they do not have with us.

Angus Robertson: A bit like fishing in Scotland.

Peter Lilley: Very much so, but at least we share that and the money that comes from it. Certainly, we would never prevent the Scottish people from enjoying adequate supplies of oil and gas; I can assure the hon. Gentleman, who has become almost a friend in the course of these debates, of that.
	My constituents are worried, too, about the implications for asylum and immigration, which is a significant issue. We were told by the right hon. Member for Leicester, East (Keith Vaz) that he did not think that the new treaty would have any implications in that regard, but article 77 says:
	The Union shall develop a policy with a view to:
	(a) ensuring the absence of any controls on persons, whatever their nationality, when crossing internal borders.
	In the theology of the European Union, internal borders includes all our ports of entry through which people come from the continent. If this treaty is implemented and adhered to, we will not have any powers to make checks, even on non-EU nationals, entering our ports and airports, even though it is sensible and practical for an island to take advantage of its nature and operate checks at its borders, rather than waiting until people have got inside to do so.
	Why does this treaty arouse more concern in this countryas was the case with previous treatiesthan it has in many continental countries? I spend such free time as this House allows me, which is not a great deal, in my home in France. I am a great Europhile, as the Minister for Europe knows. I have worked in a lot of continental countries, and I was the chairman of a German company with interests throughout Europe. When I talk to my friends on the continent, they often ask, Why are you more concerned about these things than we are? The simple reason is that the United Kingdom has greater differences and idiosyncrasies than almost any other member does vis--vis the generality of the Community.
	We have a different history and a different geography. We are an island. We have different institutions. Our institutions and our structure of law have tended to evolve over time, rather than be the result of invasions or revolutions that have swept away past institutions. We have never been occupied. We have not had a revolution for several hundred years. We were not subjected to Napoleonic laws, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Wells (Mr. Heathcoat-Amory) said. We have a maritime disposition, rather than a continental disposition. We are Anglo-Saxon in character and in a lot of the things that we do, and that includes the Celts.

Angus Robertson: No, it doesn't.

Peter Lilley: It does genetically, when one looks into the matter closely.
	The continentals often express themselves in antagonism to the Anglo-Saxon. I remember sitting in Council meetings in Europe and being told that we could not do such and such a thing because it was Anglo-Saxon. I had to say, Is that sort of racialism allowed in Europe? Can you rule me and my policies out on racial grounds? They more or less said, Yes it is, and we can.
	There is a difference of attitude, not because what we do is better, but it is simply different. We have different institutions. When it came to negotiating the banking directive, we found that we had discount houses. No one else in Europe had them. The directive, as originally written, would have wiped out our whole system of monetary management and control. Fortunately, we managed to gain an exemption from it. When I became responsible for occupational pensions, I was told that they were not part of a European competence, but we found that they were under a great threat of implications because no other country except Holland had any system of occupational pensions. They fell foul of all sorts of European regulations.
	In lots of practical areas, we have developed different ways of doing things, and when we try to harmonise them across Europe, problems are created. I repeat: that is not because what we do is betterit is simply different. Therefore, it is natural that we should want to concede as few powers, and competences, as are necessary to have an open, single internal market and allow the maximum degree of constructive co-operation between our Governments. In my contention, this treaty goes far further than that. It concedes powers, and does so in such a way that we will not readily be able to get them back.
	Edmund Burke said:
	Though a king can abdicate for his own person, he cannot abdicate for the monarchy.
	This place can transfer its powers perhaps for the duration of one Parliament, but it should be wary of trying to abdicate them permanently. It should certainly not do so without a referendum. That referendum was promised; unless and until it is provided, the treaty should not pass.

Mark Lazarowicz: The closing remarks of the right hon. Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Mr. Lilley) illustrate the approach of many Conservatives. They suggest that the EU and its institutions are some sort of behemoth or monster over which we, as a member state, a Parliament and a country have no influence. The extreme example of that position is the right hon. Member for Wells (Mr. Heathcoat-Amory), who, in one of his speeches, described our relationship with the EU as colonial.
	The EU and its institutions do not impose things on us about which we have no say. We play an active role in the organisation. We send Ministers to European institutions and the European Council. We nominate members of the European Commission and our citizens can vote for Members of the European Parliament. Member states nominate judges of the European Court by common accord. It is not a foreign organisation but one in which we have the right to play an active part and over which we jointly have control as a member state.
	The treaty tries to strengthen the ability of the organisation and the institutions that we have jointly established to pursue more effectively the policies about which we can agree with our partners in Europe. It is in the national interest of all the nations and regions in the UK to make Europe work as effectively as possible. Although I do not have much faith that that is what will happen after our discussions and after the House of Lordshopefullyagrees to ratification, we should do our best to make the most of our EU membership and reject the semi-detached relationship with the EU that Tory Front Benchers appear to support when they do not go as far as succouring their hard-liners, who want to find some way in which to create a confrontation that takes us out of the European Union.
	Playing an active part in Europe does not mean that we should not stand up for our national interests. It does not mean that we should not challenge failings in the European Union or challenge it about revelations regarding the operation of the European Parliament and the expenses of Members of the European Parliament. It certainly does not mean that we should establish a European super-stateI do not support that and, to put it bluntly, it could never happen, given the 27 member states and many nations and cultures that make up the European Union.
	However, playing an active part means that our approach to our European partners and to discussing European issues should not always be couched in terms of confrontations with Europe, whereby success is measured by how much we have managed to extract from those cunning people across the channel. I hope that, when we have gone through the reform treaty process here and in the House of Lords, we will concentrate our efforts on making friends and building alliances in Europe. That is the way forward for promoting our national interests and guaranteeing the jobs and prosperity that depend on our links with Europe.
	The European Union is a success story. The fact that 27 members states, representing so many nations, cultures and languages, have built up the institution; that regional blocs across the world talk about emulating the European Union; that countries are clamouring to get into the European Union; and that, with one tiny exception, no country wants to leaveall that reflects the success of the European Union. I support the ratification of the treaty. From now on, I hope that we can concentrate more on promoting not only the success of Europe, but an active dialogue with our European partners and the building of alliances within Europe to promote the interests of the nations and regions of our country.

Mark Francois: I am pleased to have the opportunity to sum up for Her Majesty's Opposition on this important Bill. It may surprise hon. Members to hear that I am going to miss this process. I will miss listening to the Foreign Secretary's speeches. In particular, I will miss further contributions from my right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond, Yorks (Mr. Hague), the shadow Foreign Secretary. He has led us very ably throughout the process. He has combined precision, determination and good humour. It was the Foreign Secretary who generously said at the beginning of this Third Reading debate that my right hon. Friend was one the best debaters in the House of Commons. On that point, I agree with the Foreign Secretary, even if I have agreed with him on virtually nothing else.
	I will also miss sparring with my opposite number, the Minister for Europe. Even though we have disagreed strongly on a number of occasions about the implications of the Bill and the treaty that it would enact, I accept that he has acted throughout with courtesy and good humour. He has loyally stuck to the Government's hackneyed line that the constitutional concept has been abandoned, even after the Prime Minister referred to the Lisbon treaty last Wednesday at Prime Minister's questions as the constitutional treaty. When even one's ultimate boss admits that something is a constitution, it is difficult to plough on, but the Minister has stuck loyally to his brief.
	I will also miss the Chairman of the European Scrutiny Committee and his oft-quoted report, which has become almost the standard text for our debates. That report reminded the House that the EU constitution and the Lisbon treaty are substantially equivalent and that to argue otherwise is, in the words of the Committeea Labour-dominated Committeemisleading. The Committee also highlighted how whole swathes of the original EU constitution were brought forward into what is now the treaty of Lisbon. That case was argued so strongly that  The Economist subsequently described the Government's casethat the two documents are really quite differentas a farce.
	I am also grateful to Chairman of the European Scrutiny Committee for reminding the House so eloquently on the Today programme that the Government's much-vaunted red lines would leak like a sieve. That bears repetition because it was so accurate.

Michael Connarty: The quotation that the hon. Gentleman is always using came at the end of a long contribution about the red lines. Did he subsequently read that the Government's argument was that by getting protocol 10 to article 10, the red lines would not leak like a sieve, but would be transposed and given away, as they opted in again and again? There would not be a process of accidental filtration, but a process controlled by the Government and, I hope, by the House.

Mark Francois: I hear what the hon. Gentleman says, but the moral of the story is, Be very careful what you say on the Today programme, in case it comes back to bite you.
	I would also like to pay tribute to a number of stalwarts on the Conservative Benches who have held the Government to account night after night. Of course I must mention my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr. Cash), but I also include my right hon. Friend the Member for Wells (Mr. Heathcoat-Amory), my hon. Friends the Members for Hertsmere (Mr. Clappison), for Wellingborough (Mr. Bone) and for Forest of Dean (Mr. Harper), and others who have been in the House so frequently to press the Government on what they are trying to do.
	I must also pay tribute to Valry Giscard d'Estaing, who has played such a frequent part in our proceedings that at one point I started to believe that he had been elected to the House. So that we do not leave him out of this Third Reading debate, I should like to remind the House of what he said so candidly in  Le Monde about the similarity between the original EU constitution and what is now the treaty of Lisbon. He predicted:
	Public opinion will be led to adopt, without knowing it, the proposals that we dare not present to them directly.
	I am particularly indebted to the former President, as that is an excellent summary of the Government's whole strategy on this benighted Bill.
	In lieu of the referendum that they solemnly promised in their manifesto, the Government promised the House detailed line-by-line scrutiny of the Bill and the treatybut having done that, they deliberately set out to make that practically impossible. To begin with, they briefed the media that there would be 20 days of debate in the Commons, then restricted the debate to 14 days instead. Although they like to compare that to the time allocated to debate the treaties of Amsterdam and Nice, they somehow always forget to mention that the Maastricht treaty was debated for 29 days in the House of Commonsmore than double the time allocated to the debate on this treaty. And as my hon. Friend the Member for Aldridge-Brownhills (Mr. Shepherd), who has also spoken powerfully, pointed out again and again, at the time of Maastricht, the parliamentary day was often much longer than it is now.

Jim Murphy: indicated dissent.

Mark Francois: The Minister does not have to take my word for it; he can ask my hon. Friend the Member for Stone, who I am sure will remind him.
	Just in case the days that did remain might be used to their disadvantage, the Government then invented a new way to debate treaties of this nature, with special themed debates, designed to restrict the time available at the end of each day for detailed scrutiny of specific amendments. Under to that methodology, clause 4 was debated for fewer than 15 minutes and clause 5 was never debated in detail at all. Similarly, more than half the groups of amendments selected for debate during the Committee stage15 groups out of 29were never even reached.
	I have here a leaked copy of the Government's briefing for tonight's debate. It states:
	Tory claims that we have not allowed enough time for debate are wrong...315 amendments
	were
	tabled including 279 by the Opposition.
	Amendments may have been tabled, and some may have been selectedbut they were not debated, because the debates were rigged to prevent that. The detailed amendments on borders, visas, asylum, migration, defence, the free movement of workers, freedom of association, personal data and social policy were never even debated at all. That is why Mr. Simon Carr of  The Independent, who has followed this issue closely, said of the whole process:
	It's been a shabby affair. Low, dishonest and shabby.
	He then went on to argue[Hon. Members: Where is he?] Simon Carr has been in the Press Gallery more often than some Members I see now in the Chamber. He added:
	This treaty strategy is Gordon Brown's personal creation, this is his specified treatment of Parliament, and visible to all is his definition of politics as cynicism in action.
	Despite all the protestations about allowing ample time for debate and facilitating line-by-line scrutiny, when it actually came to it, the debate was deliberately rigged to make that almost impossible. The Government just could not abandon their control-freak tendencies and had to restrict debate on the treatyan important point, which I sincerely hope will not be missed in the other place.
	Crucially, as the Bill goes to the other place, it still carries within it, in clause 6, provisions to implement article 48(6) of the treatythe new simplified revision procedure. That is the ratchet clause, which means that in future individual vetoes could be surrendered for ever, after only a brief debate on a simple Commons motion. On Second Reading, we said that we would table amendments during the Committee stage to strengthen parliamentary control over that procedure, so that giving up any veto could not be done through a simple motion, but only via a specific Act of Parliament.
	Although our amendment No. 20 to that effect was not successful, on the night it did enjoy support from Members of virtually all parties in the House, including Labour, the Scottish nationalists, Plaid Cymru, the Democratic Unionist party, ably represented tonight by the hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson)and even, on that occasion, the Liberal Democrats. I hope that the other place will consider the content of the amendment especially carefully. Perhaps it will be minded to implement the amendment, particularly given that it would not wreck the treaty itself, but would strengthen control over how the ratchet clause might be used in future.

William Cash: I congratulate my hon. Friend on his speech. May I also express the hope that maximum pressure will be exerted through the Whip in the other place to guarantee that we fight the battle in the House of Lords every bit as effectively as we have in the House of Commons, without coming to any shabby compromises?

Mark Francois: I thank my hon. Friend for his acknowledgement that our battle here has been effective. I think that the key question has to be what the Liberal Democrats will do in the upper House. We wait to find out the answer to that question.
	We also debated the referendum last Wednesday, and I do not propose, Mr. Deputy Speaker, to reprise the whole debate again. However, the Foreign Secretary's case against the referendum veered from one position to another with all the consistency of a series of Liberal Democrat Focus leaflets. He was finally reduced to arguing that a referendum was originally promised in order, as he put it that night, to clear the air. Well, I put it to him that if it was appropriate to clear the air then, why can we not clear the air now, and give the people the referendum they were promised?
	That brings me on to a fundamental weakness in the Government's whole argument throughout the passage of the Bill. If they are so confident in the treaty and believe that it is such a good deal for the people of this country, and if they contend that it is so markedly to our advantage, why do not they not have the courage of their convictions and go the people of this country to argue the case in a referendum debatenot least because they promised it in the first place?
	As my right hon. Friend the shadow Foreign Secretary previously indicated, we shall table a referendum amendment in the other place, where the battle to give the people the say that they were promised will continueand continue vigorously. Even ardent pro-Europeans must realise that the way in which this whole process has been conducted has done little, if anything, to advance their cause. In fact, it has done quite the reverse. The public may not have followed all the intricacies of the debate, which is exactly what the Government hoped, but they do know that they were promised a referendum, which they have so far been denied.
	There was considerable press comment in the aftermath of last week's vote, but I was particularly struck by an article by Camilla Cavendish in  The Times on 7 March. It was entitled A squalid exercise in dishonesty, and she noted:
	The powers that our politicians are giving away are powers that they hold in trust for the people. Some of those who voted on Wednesday sincerely believe the EU and were voting on principle. But many more simply found it expedient not to know too much.
	She went on to argue:
	Historians may relish the irony that so much now rests with Irish voters in their referendum and with unelected Lords. Let us hope that the Lords debate is more honest.
	From the Conservative Benches, we certainly hope so, too.
	If the House grants the Bill a Third Reading tonight, it will fall to the other place to apply what my right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond, Yorks has previously described as the Salisbury convention in reverse. It will fall to the unelected peers to hold elected Commons Members to the promise on which they were elected to Parliament in the first place!
	I have sat through every single debate on this treaty, and I have contributed to just about every one of them. Having done so, and seen this process in action, I believe that the only type of victory that the Government can hope to win tonight is a pyrrhic one. I believe that this remains a treaty without a democratic mandate; it lacks public support, and it lacks any endorsement by the people. When people were given a chance to vote in 10 constituency referendums, 88 per cent. argued for a referendum on the constitution. There is now only one way for the Government to legitimise this treaty in the eyes of the peoplefinally to have the courage of their convictions, to abide by their own manifesto, and to let the people decide.

Jim Murphy: We have had a fascinating debate, not least because of the contributions made by my hon. Friends the Members for Huddersfield (Mr. Sheerman) and for Linlithgow and East Falkirk (Michael Connarty), my right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester, West (Ms Hewitt) and my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, North and Leith (Mark Lazarowicz).
	I have to say that I have been looking forward to this evening since the afternoon that I became Minister for Europe. As I left No. 10, the Prime Minister said to me, As Minister for Europe, you will have some legislation to take through Parliament. Little did I know what he had in mind for me.
	We have enjoyed the contributions from and the detail provided by the hon. Member for Rayleigh (Mr. Francois). We have disagreed in almost every debate throughout our proceedings, but we have done soI hope he does not mind my saying thisin a comradely fashion. The hon. Gentleman introduced Bob Crow to our proceedings on Second Reading, so a comradely fashion it is.
	We have also enjoyed the contributions from the right hon. Member for Richmond, Yorks (Mr. Hague), the shadow Foreign Secretary. I have said before that he is the best after-dinner speaker in Parliament. After listening to him, I have come to the forlorn conclusion half a dozen times during this process that I will have to get an invitation to one of his after-dinner speeches to hear the detail of his policies.
	I would also like to thank my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary for his leadership and the way he has led the debate on each big parliamentary occasion. We have also heard forensic contributions from my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Rob Marris) and my right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester, West, whoapart from me and the hon. Member for Rayleighare about the only constant attendees of our proceedings.
	We have had the opportunity to hear from my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford, South (Mike Gapes), who chairs the Select Committee on Foreign Affairs, and my hon. Friend the Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk, who chairs the Select Committee on European Scrutiny. Typically, both are in their places tonight. I have also had support from an excellent teamParliamentary Private Secretaries, Whips and the Bill team.
	We have heard a variety of contributions today. I have to admit that, for the first time, I was not in my place to hear the hon. Member for Stone (Mr. Cash).

Rob Marris: You have heard it all before.

Jim Murphy: I have heard it all before, but not today. The hon. Member for Stone has made a fifth of all interventions and speeches in our proceedings. That is testament to his dedication; it just seemed like many more than a fifth, on occasion. Earlier this afternoon, I missed what I think was his 214th intervention. Although there are only about 13 minutes to go, I am certain that there will be a 215th.

William Cash: rose

Hon. Members: Hooray!

Jim Murphy: I give way to one of Europe's great unreformed institutions.

William Cash: My advice to the Minister is, don't hold your breath.

Jim Murphy: We also heard from the right hon. Member for Wells (Mr. Heathcoat-Amory), who made a passionate speech and has paid great attention to our proceedings throughout. He spoke about the fact that he has only an occasional affection for referendums, which is obviously the case on examination of his record as Deputy Chief Whip during the Maastricht processbut I do not want to dwell on that this evening. Following the Maastricht treaty process, and unbeknown to me until this afternoon, someone with a delicious sense of political irony gave the right hon. Gentleman his next Government job: Europe Minister. The ghost of his Euro-enthusiasm and Euro-optimism still haunts the Foreign and Commonwealth Office.
	We also heard from the right hon. Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Mr. Lilley). Again, the trend of remarkable ingenuity in our debates was followed. As I said some days ago during our proceedings, the hon. Member for Stone quoted an historic parliamentary debate and a speechby himselfas a source of reference. My hon. Friend the Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk did the same thing by proxy, quoting the right hon. Member for Wells quoting him. This evening we had another passionate speech by the right hon. Member for Hitchin and Harpenden, who went one step further in our proceedings. Not only did he quote himself, which has become the new fashiona fashion that I have not yet bought intobut, in a remarkable innovation, to make his specific point he did not quote himself from an earlier speech, saying,
	I can demonstrate that by referring to a speech that I did not give[ Official Report, 6 February 2008; Vol. 471, c. 1074.]
	when he was Secretary of State for Trade and Industry. A remarkable constitutional innovation! It is a first, and perhaps many right hon. and hon. Members on both sides of the House will take their lead from it in future debates.
	On the specifics in the treaty and therefore the Bill[Hon. Members: No!] I know. The treaty and the Bill increase the UK's share of the vote in the European Union; reduce the size of the European Commission; give greater say for national Parliaments; end the utterly ludicrous rotating presidency; improve decision making; end the external duplication; and enshrine for the first time children's rights in a European treaty. In a topsy-turvy sense of priorities, previous treaties, for whatever reason, enshrined animal rights, but not children's rights. This treaty puts that anomaly right. It also marks significant improvements in climate change and international development.
	As the hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr. Davey) saidit was foul-mannered of me to ignore not just his walk-out but his wider contribution

Angus Robertson: What about the abstention?

Jim Murphy: I have only a few minutes left and will not go into that.
	The hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton led with his chin on every occasion and showed that he had a great sense of the detail of the treaty. He also made a point this afternoon that I agree with fundamentally: that Europe is in our national interest. That is because it is not just about the projection of power on the international stage, but about effective influence when it comes to our relations with Russia, China, India and the wider world. Importantly, the treaty brings to an end the circular conversation about European structures and gives us the opportunity to refocus on European delivery on employment, when millions of Europeans are still out of work; on international development, when tens of millions of people are still without basic foodstuffs and basic medicines; and on climate change, which is, after all, the biggest strategic threat to our security and prosperity.
	On the remarkably imprecise comments by Opposition Members, the fact is that the treaty enshrines important and fundamental changes to things on which previous treaties were silentchildren's rights, human rights, climate change and international developmentensuring that those issues are, for the first time, strategic objectives for the European Union which give us the opportunity to deliver in a way that our citizens expect us to do.
	The hon. Member for Rayleigh and his hon. Friends have been remarkably imprecise about what not letting the matter rest means. What does it mean? Wait and see is what not letting the matter rest encapsulates. Not letting the matter rest is a Eurosceptic slogan of a permanent opposition; it is not a European strategy of an aspiring Government.
	We had a stark reminder of that yesterday. The Foreign Secretary and I had the opportunity to travel to Brussels for one of our regular meetings of all the Foreign Secretaries and European Ministers across the 27 member states of the EU. Among the issues that we discussed were Zimbabwe, climate change and how to deliver on jobs and economic growthsome of the big issues contained within the treaty and enabled by the Bill. Gathered in that European meeting were the great democracies of Europethe 27 Governments on the left, right and centre of European politicsall of which are committed to more effective European delivery, seized by the importance of climate change, and aware of the pressing need to deliver further for those Europeans who are currently out of work. Each and every one of those Governments was committed to the details and the principles of the Lisbon treaty.

Rob Marris: I have twice asked the right hon. Member for Richmond, Yorks (Mr. Hague) what the Conservative party's plan would be if the Bill were lost tonight. What is their plan B for what the United Kingdom should do if the treaty of Lisbon is lost tonight? Does my hon. Friend know what the position is?

Jim Murphy: At the minimum, the approach would thrust the European Union back into a period of introspection that would jeopardise stability and jobs across the European Union. Never mind plan B; we are not even clear about what the Conservatives' plan A is.

Denis MacShane: Can my hon. Friend confirm that the Governments of Germany, France, Sweden, Poland, the Netherlands, Greece and other European countries are all run by conservative parties with which the Opposition have pledged to break all relations? Is this the new definition of the purpose of Her Majesty's loyal Oppositionnot to oppose, but to oppose all relationships with Europe?

Jim Murphy: It is true that the Conservative party is entirely isolated on these big issues. I said on Second Reading that every conservative Government in Europe

Peter Lilley: You are quoting yourself.

Jim Murphy: The right hon. Gentleman is rightI am quoting myselfbut I am quoting from something that I actually said, rather than from something that I wish I had said.
	I said on Second Reading that every conservative Government in Europe and every major conservative opposition party in Europe supported the Lisbon treaty. I asked then, as I do now, which other conservative party in Europe supports the British Conservative party's opposition to the Lisbon treaty and its recipe for isolation. I will give way to any Conservative Member who wishes to answer that question.

Mark Francois: Can the Minister explain why Mr. Peter Gauweiler of the CSU recently referred the Lisbon treaty to the German constitutional court on the grounds of his belief that it might be unconstitutional?

Jim Murphy: A month of preparation, a month in gestation, a month of research, and that is all that the hon. Gentleman could come up with. The fact is that the great democracy of Germany and its centre-right Government are endorsing the treaty, the French Parliament has already ratified it, and the new Spanish Government are committed to it.
	What would this great not letting the matter rest coalition look like? It has a new member: I discovered only yesterday, when I was in Brussels, that the French hunting party has now come out against the treaty. Given Sinn Fein, Marianne Thiemewho, as we all know, leads the Dutch party for the animals in its opposition to the treatyand the now infamous Philippe de Villiers, part of the leadership of the French hunting party, we have three allies to fill this great chamber of Europe. That still leaves 23 empty seats for the great European coalition of international Governments.

Michael Connarty: I was enthralled by my hon. Friend's list of supporters of the Conservative position, but he forgot to mention the Democratic Unionist party. The hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) seemed tonight not just to argue against the treaty, but to suggest that his party would vote for withdrawal from the European Union.

Jim Murphy: My hon. Friend has made his own point, pretty fairly.
	So there are still 23 unfilled European isolationist chairs in this great chamber. There are not enough unreconstructed communist parties in Europe to fill them all. Let us leave the isolationism of the Dutch animals, the French huntsmen and the British Conservatives to one side. After all, it is a victory of ideology over our national interest. I urge my hon. Friends to reject it, and I commend the Bill to the House.
	 Question put, That the Bill be now read the Third time:
	 The House proceeded to a Division.

Mr. Speaker: I ask the Serjeant at Arms to investigate the delay in the Aye Lobby.

The House having divided: Ayes 346, Noes 206.

Question accordingly agreed to.
	 Bill read the Third time, and passed.

William Cash: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.  [ Interruption. ]

Mr. Speaker: Order. Allow the hon. Gentleman to make his point of order, as he does not speak that often in the House.

William Cash: I am grateful to you, Mr. Speaker. In view of the fact that the only official definition of the Mace is in the manual of procedure, to whom do I turn to establish the extent of the scrap value of the Mace this evening?

Mr. Speaker: We have a fine Mace, and it has no scrap value. It keeps its value.

DEFERRED DIVISIONS

Motion made, and Question put forthwith , pursuant to Standing Order No. 41A(3) (Deferred divisions),
	That at this day's sitting, Standing Order No. 41A (Deferred divisions) shall not apply to the Motion in the name of Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer relating to Banks and Banking. [Alison Seabeck.]
	 Question agreed to.

DELEGATED LEGISLATION

Motion made, and Question put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 118(6) (Delegated Legislation Committees),

Banks and Banking

That the draft Northern Rock plc Compensation Scheme Order 2008, which was laid before this House on 22nd February, be approved. [Alison Seabeck.]
	 Question agreed to.

STANDING ORDERS (SELECT COMMITTEES)

Ordered,
	That the following amendments be made to the Standing Orders:
	(1) In Standing Order No. 146 (Select Committee on Public Administration), in line 2, leave out from the word 'Administration' to the word 'which' in line 5, and insert the words 'and the Health Service Commissioner for England'.
	(2) In Standing Order No. 151 (Statutory Instruments (Joint Committee))
	(i) in sub-paragraph (1)(A), in line 18, leave out from the word 'any' to the end of the sub-paragraph, and insert the words 'remedial order or draft remedial order under Schedule 2 to the Human Rights Act 1998, any draft order proposed to be made under Part 1 of the Legislative and Regulatory Reform Act 2006 and any subordinate provisions order made or proposed to be made under the Regulatory Reform Act 2001;' and
	(ii) in sub-paragraph (1)(B), in line 29, leave out the words 'statutory instrument made by a member of the Scottish Executive or by the National Assembly for Wales' and insert the words 'Scottish statutory instrument or any statutory instrument made by the Welsh Ministers'.
	(3) In Standing Order No. 152 (Select committees related to government departments), in the Table in paragraph 2
	(i) in item 1, in the first column, leave out the words 'Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform' and insert the words 'Business and Enterprise'.
	(ii) in item 10, in the first column, leave out the words 'Innovation, Universities and Skills' and insert the words 'Innovation, Universities, Science and Skills'. [Alison Seabeck.]

NEWTON AYCLIFFE

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn. [Alison Seabeck.]

Phil Wilson: I am extremely pleased to be given the opportunity to take part in this short debate about an important issue that affects my constituency.
	For many years the regeneration of Newton Aycliffe town centre has been an unresolved issue for my constituents who live in the town. Since I was elected MP for Sedgefield in July 2007, making progress on the regeneration of the town centre has been my main focus of attention in Newton Aycliffe. Tonight, I shall report on the progress that has been made.
	The whole debacle of the regeneration of Newton Aycliffe town centre stretches back not just two or three years but more than four decades. The people of Newton Aycliffe have been living with the problem for a generation, but what I shall announce this evening can, I believe, start to breathe new life into the future of the town centre. Before I outline the history of the problems with the regeneration, I shall state where we are at present and why there is room for optimism.
	Over the past eight months, I have been working to resolve the ongoing problems with the regeneration project with Sedgefield borough council, Freshwater, which owns the town centrewe must not forget that it is privately ownedDurham county council, the County Durham primary care trust, the Tees, Esk and Wear Valleys mental health trust and Great Aycliffe town council. My predecessor, the right hon. Tony Blair, arranged for the involvement of those partner organisations in the project. They all sat down together at the beginning of last year and now hold regular meetings.
	Over the past few years, the main sticking point has been the former health centre, whose dilapidated state is a disgrace to the NHS and an embarrassment to Newton Aycliffe. By the end of 2007, after much delay, the County Durham PCT moved its staff out of the health centre. Most are based at the primary care partnership at Cobbler's Hall in Newton Aycliffe, where they will continue to deliver clinical services on a temporary basis until the town centre is redeveloped. The mental health trust, which provides the substance misuse service, is seeking planning permission for change of use of a property in Newton Aycliffe and will be leaving the former health centre shortly.
	The health centre shared its building with the library. Durham county council has found a site to which the library can move on a temporary basis. It will be sited in a demountable building on land formerly occupied by a petrol station, once the site has been cleared. The site is opposite the police headquarters so the library will remain in the centre of the town.
	Next to the library is another dilapidated building, where Age Concern runs a drop-in centre for elderly people, known locally as the Cubby. The proposal is that space be made available in the library to accommodate the elderly people who use the Cubby. Once that has been achievedover the next few monthsit will be time to demolish the building that houses the former health centre and library.
	Last week, I received written confirmation from County Durham PCT that demolition will commence once the final moves have taken place. Freshwater has confirmed to me that Dalton way, a mothballed row of shops next to the former health centre, will also be demolished. That is excellent news and is the start of the town centre's regeneration. However, regeneration is not just about moving services into temporary accommodation; it is also about finding a permanent home for them. That is why it is planned to turn the leisure centre into a community service hub where the health centre and library will also be permanently based. The relevant partners in that aspect of the development will meet later this week to start threshing out the details. In May, public consultation will take place, led by Freshwater, which will detail its plans for the town centre development and listen to people's views. All that is good news for the people of Newton Aycliffe but I understand their frustration, because I share it. My office is situated in the town centre, at 5 Upper Beveridge way.
	It is important to outline briefly the history of Newton Aycliffe to show how we arrived at a situation in which we are faced with a town centre in need of regeneration. As a result of the New Towns Act 1946, the Newton Aycliffe (Designation) Order was made on 19 April 1947 and Newton Aycliffe became one of the first wave of six new towns designated that year. The others were Stevenage, Crawley, Hemel Hempstead, Harlow and East Kirkbride. However, the birth of Newton Aycliffe is locally considered to be 28 June 1948, when Lord Beveridge cut the first sward. On 9 November, he opened the first new house. This year2008is therefore a special year for Newton Aycliffe; it is the town's 60th anniversary.
	In the 1940s, only 60 people lived in the area that was to become Newton Aycliffe. With the advent of the second world war, the Aycliffe area was designated the perfect location for a royal ordnance factory because it was away from existing communities. At its peak, some 16,000 people, mostly women, worked in the factory. One of them was my grandmother. They worked in 1,000 flat-topped concrete and brick buildings spread over 1 square mile. The site was suitable partly because it was close to the Great North road, now the A1(M), and had a small railway stationthe same station at which Robert Stephenson conducted his first train run, with locomotion No. 1, in 1825.
	After the war, the ordnance factory was run down and some of the buildings were sold off to private companies. That become the nucleus of Newton Aycliffe's industrial estate, which is now the largest industrial estate in County Durham, with more than 250 companies employing between 8,000 and 9,000 people. It was inevitable that a growing industrial estate miles from anywhere would lead to the building of an urban area, and eventually a new town was proposed, with a corporation to oversee its development. The first chair of the corporation was Lord Beveridge. A friend of mine, John Moran, who has lived in Newton Aycliffe for almost 50 years, is a bricklayer and helped to build more houses in the town in those early days. He remembers Lord Beveridge visiting the building site on Crosby road one day, wearing his trilby, overcoat and that traditional building-site apparel, a pair of spats.
	Newton Aycliffe was the smallest of the new towns. It was planned to cover an area of 880 acres and cater for a population of 10,000 people, 6,000 of whom would work on the industrial estate. In his 1952 pamphlet New Towns and the Case for Them, Beveridge described the first inhabitants of Newton Aycliffe. He said that the town consisted
	largely of young married people....As a consequence the town overflows with young children, it is a town of toddlers, or those just past the toddling age; it is a town of few adolescents and up to present, only three grandmothers in its 1,000 of population.
	Of the town's first 500 inhabitants, many came from all over County Durham, including such areas in my constituency as Ferryhill and Chilton. Many more travelled from Birmingham, London, Oxford, Coventry, Somerset, Scotland and elsewhere.
	The town grew steadily, but had no amenities. Every school, church, community centre and doctor's surgery had to be built from scratch. The first row of shops opened on Neville parade in 1952, and boasted a post office, a greengrocer's, and a fishmonger's. The first shops in the town centre started to be built in 1957, when the population target for Newton Aycliffe was doubled from 10,000 to 20,000, so that it could reach its industrial potential. By 1959 there were 49 shops in the town centre, of which 39 were let.
	At the time, a road ran through the town centre along Beveridge way, but it has been pedestrianised. Many constituents remember the town centre from those times; they say that it was vibrant and full of flowerbeds, and that it was somewhere that people wanted to go. From my understanding, the problems with the development of the town centre started in the early 1960s, when Lord Hailsham, as Minister for the North East, produced a report entitled The North EastA Programme for Regional Development and Growth, which proposed additional industrial land for Newton Aycliffe and a new target population of 45,000. Even then the figure was seen as highly optimistic, but the corporation started to consider the future of the town centre in the light of the new target.
	The development corporation's annual report of 1963 records that
	because of the possibility of the town being doubled in size there has been no further development in the town centre, apart from the completion of a large supermarket.
	There were further delays while consultants prepared a master plan. A report was commissioned in 1964 but did not materialise until 1966. The plan was to build a new town centre a quarter of a mile away, and to connect the two by a pedestrian walkway. That proposal was rejected and it was agreed to expand the existing town centre.
	In 1968, the Secretary of State agreed to phase 1 of the town centre's development, which provided 14 new shop units and a modest amount of second-floor office accommodation. In 1970, Darlington rural district council built the leisure centre that now stands on the corner of Beveridge way, with a 100,000 contribution from the development corporation. The centre was further extended by Sedgefield district council, the successor local authority, in 1974. In 1972, phase 2 was agreed and led to more shopping and office space.
	Between the publication of the Hailsham report and the completion of phase 2 in 1975a period of 12 yearsthe town centre changed, some thought, architecturally, for the worse. In his book Aycliffe and Peterlee New Towns, Garry Philipson said that much of the problem could be attributed to
	indecision and consequent lengthy delay regarding the new towns' target population and, subsequently, the form of town centre redevelopment.
	By 1980 Newton Aycliffe's population stood at 26,000. A fresh target was set the following year which envisaged a population of 32,000 in 1991, a figure dramatically lower than the 45,000 set by Hailsham. The population in 2008 is only about 27,000. In 1984 the town centre was sold off to the Grainger Trust, which in 1990 sold it to Freshwater property investors. The following year the Avenue comprehensive school was closed because of falling school rolls. The school was next door to the town centre and was demolished in the early 1990s.
	It was not until 1999 that the county council agreed to sell the land to Manchester-based developers CTP. In 2000, CTP and Tesco announced a plan for a 68,000 sq ft supermarket as part of a 25 million town centre makeover. The owners of the existing town centre opposed the proposal on the grounds that the Tesco store would be too large, and integration between the new development and the existing town centre would be poor. As a consequence, there was no agreement.
	The borough council agreed to go ahead with the development in two phases. Phase 1 consisted of the new Tesco store, eight retail units and a youth centre. The development was completed by 2004. Phase 2 was to include a pedestrian plaza, health centre and library and community facilities. In 2006, Somerfield supermarket closed with the loss of 63 jobs in the town centre, mostly as the result of competition from Tesco.
	The agreement between Durham county council and CPT expired before the development of the second phase could start. The council stated at the time, in May 2007, that despite
	assurance after assurance . . .the development never came.
	That was the view of Chris Tunstall, deputy chief executive of the council.
	That is how we reached the present position, but as I said, there are grounds for optimism because things are starting to move after much pressure and after getting people to sit down and sort the problem out. Some may say that we have been here before, and we have. That is why I will continue to press hard for action rather than talk. Action is starting to happen, but my anger will match that of my constituents if the promised action is not forthcoming.
	Slowly, retailers are beginning to show confidence in the town once more. A new store will be moving into the town centre in the coming months where Somerfield once had a supermarket. That may be of little comfort for my constituents in Newton Aycliffe, but criticism of town centres in new towns is not restricted to the town centre that we are debating tonight. It has been a concern for many new towns. The Transport, Local Government and the Regions Committee report The New Towns: Their Problems and Future, published in July 2002, stated in paragraph 18:
	At the centre of New Towns, a shopping centre has been developed to meet the needs of the surrounding populations. Many have suffered from poor design and layout. Most are now out-of-date and as a result, residents are choosing to shop in other locations.
	In paragraph 21, the report went on to say:
	Many of the local authorities are seeking to redevelop the shopping centres but they are hindered because they do not own them.
	That is true of Newton Aycliffe town centre. Freshwater, which owns the site, however, is showing renewed commitment to the town centre's redevelopment.
	In the book on Newton Aycliffe and Peterlee by Garry Philipson from which I quoted earlier, the author pointed out the fundamental problem with the development of town centre shopping. Referring to both Newton Aycliffe and Peterlee, he saw
	the reluctance of developers to invest in two small New Towns with limited prospects of growth, both sited in an impoverished region.
	He wrote that in 1988.
	That was then; this is now. Today, the north-east is growing at a faster rate than any other region in the country. Unemployment in my constituency is at or below the national average. Back in the 1980s, it stood at 40 per cent. in some areas of my constituency. Employment is at high levels. I read in the papers yesterday that the north-east is exporting more than it is importing, part of which, no doubt, is down to the businesses on Newton Aycliffe's industrial estate.
	It is time for developers and everyone else who has the regeneration of Newton Aycliffe town centre at heart to step up to the plate and deliver. The people of Newton Aycliffe have waited long enough. Newton Aycliffe is a dynamic town, with a strong community spirit, and in 2008, the year of the town's 60th anniversary, my constituents there can look forward with confidence. All they want is a town centre that they can proudly say is at the heart of their community.
	I conclude by asking the Government to consider two proposals. First, will my hon. Friend the Minister ensure that the Government's regeneration agencies work with the local authorities responsible for Newton Aycliffe to ensure that the town delivers its full potential as a sustainable community and strategic growth point for County Durham? As we approach the creation of a new unitary authority for County Durham, does he agree that that new authority has an important strategic role in delivering for the people of Newton Aycliffe?
	Secondly, the Government are developing a radical policy on the creation of eco-townsthere are to be 10 by 2020. That is an excellent approach to marrying together sustainable communities and the need to tackle climate change. However, as they will be new towns, I strongly believe that the lessons of the existing new towns should be taken into consideration as plans progress. They need to be places where people can live, work and, dare I say, shop in harmony. Can the Minister tell me if the lessons, both positive and negative, from the past 60 years of new town development will be fed into the decision-making process on eco-towns?
	Newton Aycliffe is a great town and one that I am personally very proud to represent.

Iain Wright: It gives me real pleasure to congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Sedgefield (Phil Wilson), who is my next door neighbour in parliamentary constituency terms, on securing this debate. He has been in this House for only a relatively short time but he has impressed all sides with his tenacious campaigning on behalf of his constituents in Sedgefield and his knowledge of and passion for raising the skills levels of people both in his constituency and in our wider north-east region.
	I am aware that revitalising and regenerating Newton Aycliffe's town centre was a hot topic in the by-election that enabled my hon. Friend to come to this House. True to his word, he has been resolute in his promise to his constituents to raise this matter in the House. I was particularly impressed with the fact that he has also kept his constituents closely informed about this matter. I understand that he wrote to more than 1,000 people who have expressed an interest in the subject of Newton Aycliffe town centre, informing them that he had had meetings with the private owners of the centre, parish, borough and county councils, and the primary care trust. He is a strong campaigner on this matter. He demonstrated that in his maiden speech, and he did so, in an excellent fashion, here again tonight.
	The Government strongly believe that facilitating and enabling town centres and other service centres within regeneration areas to achieve their potential is an important part of maximising economic growth and realising the sense of place and high quality of life that we all wish to obtain. The Government's policies and approach towards town and city centre development have underpinned successful regeneration across the country, and we now need to reflect on how we can build on that success and drive improvement and investment forward to improve still further areas such as Newton Aycliffe.
	Government policy acknowledges that places are different. For example, Newton Aycliffe is different from Sedgefield village or Trimdon collieryother parts of my hon. Friend's constituencyand will have distinctive strengths that require nurturing and challenges that need to be addressed. That can be done only with a wider, deeper and more meaningful involvement with the local communities affected. Councils can take on the role of strong and strategic local leadership, with central Government encouraging local priorities and innovation. What is also vital to appreciate, particularly when, as in my hon. Friend's case, the town centre is privately owned, is that partnership working and good, strong and mature co-ordination between private, public and community organisations, tailored to the specific area, is the best way to succeed.
	My hon. Friend asked me how we could ensure that the regeneration activities work with the local authorities responsible for Newton Aycliffe to ensure that the town delivers its full potential. I absolutely agree with the concerns he expressed. He will no doubt be aware of the sub-national review, in which we propose that the regional strategy for planningthe regional spatial strategyand the strategy for economic developmentthe regional economic strategyform into a single integrated strategy. We are proposing more delegation of funding for One NorthEast as the regional development agency in our region and a new economic development duty for local authorities. That renewed clarity of roles for RDAs and local authorities will address the concerns raised by my hon. Friend. On the sub-national review, he will wish to note that we are preparing consultations on those reforms, which we will publish shortly.
	I also agree with my hon. Friend's point about how the creation of a new unitary authority for County Durham has an important role in delivering for the people of Newton Aycliffe. Incidentally, I thought that he was excellent on this subject on the BBC's Politics Show on Sunday. I would suggest that the partnership approach that I mentioned earlier will need to be established quickly with the new unitary authority to ensure that the council addresses the needs and aspirations of the people of Newton Aycliffe.
	I understand that sometimes the processes of land assembly, property purchase, negotiation with landlords and tenants and, importantly, consultation with local people and agencies take time and I know that the communities in Newton Aycliffe and the wider borough of Sedgefield have sometimes expressed their impatience with that process. However, it is to the credit of all concerned, particularly my hon. Friend, who has done much to engage with local people on this matter and broker a deal with the relevant players, that the people, businesses and public agencies in the town can look forward to a revitalised town centre built on partnership and long-term sustainability.
	As my hon. Friend said, Newton Aycliffe town centre is in the process of a major redevelopment around the old Avenue school site. That redevelopment has seen the creation of a new library, community centre, supermarket and a wider range of leisure and retail units, adding about another 16 acres of commercial and recreational opportunities for the people of Newton Aycliffe. I am aware that this new redevelopment will be based around a new town square, which will be the central point between the old and the new town centres. The sense of place that I mentioned earlier is so important. I strongly believe, as does my hon. Friend, that the public realm is vital in creating that positive sense of place, and that the development of well-planned areas with high quality design and construction attracts people to live, work and relax in them.
	What my hon. Friend has described tonight is an emerging success story, with private developers and public agencies locked into an agreement to transform the main area of the town centre. I understand that there are still some property moves and demolitions to be undertaken, but we, and the people of Newton Aycliffe, can look forward with renewed confidence to the return of the busy and bustling town centre that the town deserves to have. That is particularly good news for the town and excellent timing, because it will help us to celebrate the 60th anniversary of the foundation of the town.
	The Government are keen to see a co-ordinated and holistic approach to regeneration, with an emphasis on ensuring that our towns and neighbourhoods are connected and have the right mix of economic activity to provide for more and better jobs, decent standards, a choice of decent housing and excellent public services close to the community. My hon. Friend has already raised with our right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Health the matter of the 250 million access fund, which will establish 150 new GP-run health centres and improve access to first-class health facilities in areas such as County Durham. My hon. Friend promised his constituents that he will continue to bang on about matters relating to the health centre in the town and, thanks to his efforts, work is progressing.
	Housing greatly interests me and I know that Newton Aycliffe, like my own constituency, and the rest of the Sedgefield constituency, has seen significant development and improvement in its housing stock over the past 10 years. In addition, the nearby industrial estate continues to be a major source of investment and employment. The industrial estate is the largest business location in County Durham, covering some 230 hectares and is located close to major road links in the north-east such as the A1(M). I am confident that the industrial estate will provide still more enterprise and employment opportunities to County Durham and Newton Aycliffe in the years to come, following further investment.
	One of the big successes of this Labour Government has been the neighbourhood renewal fund, which was charged with reducing the inequalities in our most deprived areas. That was done through the national strategy action plan, A New Commitment to Neighbourhood Renewal, which set out the radical vision that within 20 years no one should be seriously disadvantaged by where they live. As a result of that commitment, the north-east region has received more than 377 million of neighbourhood renewal funding since 2001.
	Town centres such as Newton Aycliffe have benefited from elements of that investment, and Sedgefield borough council and its partners have received more than 7 million as part of neighbourhood renewal fund moneys.
	Although, as my hon. Friend said, unemployment levels in Newton Aycliffe, the wider Sedgefield constituency and the north-east are at record lows, more needs to be done. That is why we recently announced the new working neighbourhoods fund to drive down unemployment still further in our disadvantaged communities and help councils and community groups optimise the talent and enterprise in our neighbourhoods.
	Sedgefield borough council's annual allocation for the working neighbourhoods fund has been set at 2 millionsubstantially more, it has to be said, than it received from the neighbourhood renewal fund. That funding will provide a further boost to the regeneration efforts of the area and should directly link into the capital investment and other investments planned for Newton Aycliffe town centre.
	An improved, more economically active town centre in Newton Aycliffe, close to a revitalised Aycliffe industrial estate, promises investment, jobs, and better opportunities for communities. I know that local partners want to factor in a vibrant town centre in their broader strategies for renewal.
	I do not want to dictate the way in which local councils and community groups should allocate that additional funding, but they could, for example, set up job advice and skills schemes in the town centre and in the community buildings that are being built. Financial incentives will be available to local authorities that are successful in reducing worklessness. I hope that such a co-ordinated approach will help ensure that Newton Aycliffe town centre has a vibrant future.
	My hon. Friend mentioned his belief that town centres do not exist in isolation, and that their connection to local jobs and housing markets is crucial to their sustainability. He also mentioned his hope that we will address and learn from the lessons of the past about the new growth points and eco-towns.
	Growth points are key to concentrating future growth in existing urban centres. They can also act as a successful catalyst for improving areas and town centres. With that in mind, my hon. Friend may be interested to know that the Durham housing and neighbourhoods board has submitted to the Government a bid for a new growth point in the south and east Durham areas. Newton Aycliffe is included in that bid as a key urban centre and focus for significant housing and economic development. I would like to tell my hon. Friend that we will make an announcement on the growth point bids that have been selected for development shortly, and I am sure that he will take a keen interest in that.
	Again, I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this important debate. I pay tribute to the work that he has done in brokering an acceptable deal for the regeneration of the area, and assure him that the Government will continue to invest in areas that require assistance in regenerating and revitalising communities such as those that he represents in Newton Aycliffe.
	 Question put and agreed to.
	 Adjourned accordingly at twenty-nine minutes to Eleven o'clock.